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Saban's Empire Likely Won't Fall Soon

Spencer Hall posted a beautifully written piece on what might bring the end to the current Alabama dynasty, comparing it to Nebraska in the '90s and looking at where the threats to it lie now. I disagree some with the approach and with the conclusions.

Figuring out why Nebraska fell off is a fairly easy thing to: Tom Osborne retired. Frank Solich kept it going at a reduced level for a while, reaching another brief peak with Eric Crouch, but Solich was no Osborne. Steve Pedersen fired Solich and hired Bill Callahan, and the rest is history. If Bama falls off when Saban retires, the decline won't be shrouded in mystery.

To see how dynasties can fall off without the head coach leaving, I'd have looked more towards USC under Pete Carroll. It was a monster of a program, winning all or a share of two national titles and requiring a heroic effort from Vince Young to deny it of a third. And then all of a sudden, it just wasn't the best anymore. The decline did begin somewhere around when OC Norm Chow left, but given what he's done after leaving USC, I'm less inclined than I used to be to point to that and call it a day.

After all, the teams were still quite good. The 2008 defense in particular was one of the absolute best of the decade. Carroll just lost the ability to win on the road with the same consistency as at home. Of USC's five losses across 2006-08, four came away from the Coliseum. The one home loss was the famous upset by a really bad Stanford team in '07, which came a year after USC's epic last-weekend flop against eventual 7-6 UCLA. I'll let you decide whether losing to nine-win Oregon State teams in both 2006 and 2008 also counts as "losing to a team you have no business losing to", but those indiscretions indicate the program that lacked focus at bad times. Eventually, it seems that expecting to win solely because you showed up happens to every great regime. I think that could have hurt Alabama some in 2010, to bring it back to Saban briefly.

The line between undefeated and one or two losses can be razor thin, and that was the case for those Trojans. Guys just didn't quite pan out like they used to. Joe McKnight was supposed to be the next Reggie Bush, but he wasn't. John David Booty and Mark Sanchez were not Matt Leinart and Carson Palmer. Taylor Mays was a fearsome hitter from the safety spot, but his coverage was lacking compared to his predecessors. A few of these things happening at once can be overcome, but if they all happen at the same time, a program can't help but fall off from being elite every year.

In 2009, when Carroll went with freshman Matt Barkley because he didn't have a single other reliable quarterback, the decline really set in. Carroll then skipped town right as the NCAA sanctions were about to hit. Lane Kiffin has done a better job than I thought he would getting things back up, but as much as anything, it's because guys like Barkley, Robert Woods, and Marquise Lee are panning out (or being well developed by the coaches) again.

Star-divide

Look at another dynasty that fell off even more dramatically: Florida under Urban Meyer. The Gators won 13 games in three out of four seasons, and then suddenly the program could barely do a thing well. Dan Mullen leaving for Starkville and Meyer's coming and going didn't help, but it didn't look like the same team in the least in 2010.

John Brantley was never going to be a perfect fit in Meyer's offense, but he played like a two-star quarterback instead of the four-star quarterback he was billed as. Andre Debose was supposed to be the next Percy Harvin, but he wasn't. All the receivers, for that matter, looked no better than David Nelson, who was the fourth option on the '09 team. There was no explosive pass rusher to replace Carlos Dunlap, and the team hadn't had a great DT rotation since 2006 anyway.

Florida didn't drop off in the recruiting rankings, just as USC never did either. The coaches either lost their eye for talent or their ability to develop it. Some of that easily could simply be the law of averages setting in: you're not going to hit on every four- or five-star player you sign for too many years in a row. Some percentage of blue chip recruits are going to be busts, and just as some years most of them work out, some years most don't.

If I'm correct in my diagnosis of USC's and Florida's falls—that the root cause is players not panning out or being developed well—then Alabama fans have little to worry about for now. That's because Saban does something that Carroll and Meyer did not: he oversigns. He can better deal with a bad year where too many highly rated guys bust because he simply brings in a lot more players. Even with the new SEC rule with the 25-players-per-year cap, by my count he's still comfortably over the 85-scholarship limit right now.

Having a consistently good roster is, after all, the whole reason why coaches who oversign do it. Forget all the politics surrounding the practice for a moment and look at the plain effect. Your best 50-60 players who play the majority of the snaps are going to be better if you have a larger pool of talent to choose from, provided you bring in highly rated classes every year. Saban certainly has been bringing in highly rated classes, so he's going to have a competitive advantage from oversiging.

I don't see USC or Dana Holgorsen at West Virginia as the primary threats to Alabama's run of success as Spencer does. USC is going to fall off due to its enormous sanctions here soon, and West Virginia simply cannot compete with a fully focused Saban at a place like Alabama.

If Alabama is going to decline with Saban still there, I see only three avenues of getting there. One is if somehow a couple of other SEC coaches somehow leapfrog Saban schematically. Given how good Saban is, that doesn't seem likely to me. The next is the natural slowing down that comes with aging, but we're still a few years off from that setting in. The third would be national adoption of Big Ten-style oversigning rules that limit programs' ability to go over the 85-scholarship cap. I don't know how imminent that would be (not very, I'm guessing), but it would make Saban more vulnerable to falling off thanks to having a couple of bad and/or small classes in a row.

Maybe Alabama will take some steps back in the pecking order in the West if Les Miles keeps it up, Scot Loeffler turns out to be a genius at Auburn, and Texas A&M parlays its new SEC membership into recruiting dominance in its home state. Kevin Sumlin does run a Holgorsen-style Airraid, after all, which would directly threaten Saban in the ways Spencer described WVU possibly causing him some issues. I hesitate to point to new schemes as world changers though; Nebraska's option was already a relic in the '90s when Osborne trashed the rest of the country with it. With the right kind of great players, anyone can win with any system in college football.

All of us non-Alabama fans are stuck with Saban dominating for a while unless any of those three things I mentioned before set in sooner than expected. Saban going to Alabama is one of those rare right-place-right-time fits where a coach comes in and wakes a sleeping giant. They only happen about two or three times a decade. We saw that with Steve Spurrier at Florida in 1990, Bob Stoops at Oklahoma in 1999, arguably Jim Tressel at Ohio State in 2001 (depending on how down you think OSU was under John Cooper), Carroll at USC in 2001, and Saban at Alabama in 2007. Meyer at Ohio State might be the first of this new decade, provided he can keep his stress level down.

With Alabama at such a high level and with his coaching tree sprouting new branches every year, the end of Sabanball is not near either in Tuscaloosa or nationwide.

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Saban's Empire Likely Won't Fall Soon

In what season has Saban had more than 85 scholarship players?
You do admit that it is by your count, but since you have no access, your count would qualify as more of a guess. Or a fantasy maybe, but more likely just another uninformed blogger picking the low hanging fruit of conventional trendy wisdom.

by creekdweller on Feb 14, 2012 5:33 PM EST reply actions  

In what season has Saban had more than 85 scholarship players?

the offseason.

"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted

by Zoltar on Feb 14, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Zoltar is right

He’s never had more than 85 players on scholarship during the season. It’s during the offseason when he can have over 85; he just has to be below 85 by the time fall camp begins.

My sources for the count were the roster on Alabama’s own athletics website and the Rivals recruiting database. Anyone who signed an NLI with Bama counted for me as a player on scholarship. Alabama had 83 such players in 2011, plus two transfers from other BCS schools. It doesn’t matter now whether Phelon Jones had a scholarship as he was a senior. Duron Carter is the 85th player from ‘11, and I can’t imagine him merely walking on after transferring from Ohio State.

With 17 scholarship seniors gone and three early draft entrants, Bama had 20 slots for the 2012 recruiting class. Thanks to back-counting two to last year, Saban signed 27 players. That would put Bama at 92 scholarships. Even if Carter is off scholarship and two or three players have quit football or something, Bama is still almost certainly above the 85 cap right now.

Take a look at my count if you wish. This is a roster snapshot from the Bama website in November. Let me know if there’s someone included who shouldn’t be.

Team Speed Kills -- SBNation's SEC Blog
Follow me @Year2
Second Year -- Me on things other than sports

by Year2 on Feb 14, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

Team Speed Kills -- SBNation's SEC Blog
Follow me @Year2
Second Year -- Me on things other than sports

by Year2 on Feb 14, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly the best point I can make here

Is that circa 2005 EVERYTHING you’re saying here was being said about USC. All empires fade. There are no exceptions.

The other thing to remember is that this is a league of thin margins. For every team, including Alabama.

Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook

by Billy Gomila on Feb 14, 2012 8:58 PM EST reply actions  

The British and now the Japanese are well aware of this. Whither America?

Then again, India, Russia, and China are the comeback kids.

After we fade, do we come back again?

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 15, 2012 2:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Screw that.

I predict that Alabama football will be a perennial juggernaut and will win at least 20 more national championships before Nick Saban is fired for going 9-3 after the 2035 season.

Editor, Dawg Sports.

Go Dawgs!

by vineyarddawg on Feb 15, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

How can Bama will all those NC

if UGA wins it every single year starting next year until the end of time.

"Tommy, completions are way more awesome when you force them through triple coverage." ----Brett Farve (look-a-like)

by Aaron.50cal on Feb 15, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

It's football...

weird things happen.

Whatever we predict the college football world to look like in 5 years time, we’ll all almost certainly be wrong. All it takes is one terrible hire for any football program to take a serious hit… Its happened to Phil Fulmer, Mack Brown, Urban Meyer, Mark Richt and nearly every other “great” coach over the last 30 years.

One reason that coaches like Neyland, Bryant and the like had such consistent success is that they were able to “keep the band together” for decades at a time in some cases. The demand for head coaches(aka increased turnover) just wasn’t as strong before everyone realized how much money there was in TV. Nowadays, it’s damn near impossible to hang onto a top shelf assistant for more than a couple of years… someone is eventually going to want to give the guy a promotion elsewhere.

Now a good coach is much more likely to make a good hire when they need to replace someone, but nothing is even remotely guaranteed in the world of personnel.

by Caban on Feb 14, 2012 9:15 PM EST reply actions  

Hall’s well written piece is flawed.

As you pointed out, schemes aren’t what we bring Saban down. Gus didn’t beat Saban by outscheming him, nor did he even when last time. And the option was in decline when Osborne won.

Talent certainly is a major factor in our winning. But I believe not only does Saban’s development of the players’ talent is vital, but also his pyschological development of the players is even more lmportant. They buy into his grind. In this way he is like the Bear.

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 15, 2012 2:37 AM EST reply actions  

Im reminded of a buying-in example from the NCG back on Jan 9th.

Courtney Upshaw takes the stage and is awarded the Defensive Player of the Game. He says without hesitation (paraphrased) “This is for my teammates. We did this together.” Upshaw immediately hands the plaque to a fellow defensive player, who hands it on and so it goes.

Football is a team sport. I especially love how Bama players of today exhibit that sense of teamwork.

Proud mini-Saban.

by Tidee Whitee on Feb 15, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Need to edit better on this smartphone.

*what will bring
*did be even win
*not only is

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 15, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Winning is really really hard

at any level, but I think Bill “Brick” Curry proved that anyone can win at Alabama. Certainly Saban is a great, great coach, but he’s in a position which is really, really great to be in, and it’s just not that easy to build a program like the one at Bama.

It’s kind of like the Yankees, they simply have so many advantages over other schools in terms of facilities, money, fan base support, alumni $$ support, tradition, and so on. While the Yanks don’t win every year, and they have had their wilderness years, the fact is they will probably always be one of the favoties to win, even if the have had a hard run for a while.

"Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body."
― Seneca

by NJBammer on Feb 15, 2012 11:38 AM EST reply actions  

Every coach since Bryant won 10 games at least once, even the idiots like Franchione.

Team Speed Kills -- SBNation's SEC Blog
Follow me @Year2
Second Year -- Me on things other than sports

by Year2 on Feb 15, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Mike Price begs to differ

/troll hard, troll often

http://hobnailboot.wordpress.com/

by AuditDawg on Feb 15, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Every coach who coached at least 10 games.

(Joe Kines also says hello.)

And that stat actually goes all the way back to the end of WWI except for one lousy Ears Whitworth in the mid 50s.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 15, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, obviously I was keeding and will always love Joe Kines' halftime interview

I did see that stat the other day about every coach winning at least 10 games once asides from the aforementiond Ears Whitworth. Pretty impressive stat, I must say. I think Georgia can only claim that back to the Kennedy administration and Johnny Griffith.

http://hobnailboot.wordpress.com/

by AuditDawg on Feb 15, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Winning 10 games insn't that impressive

When you play 13 (including a bowl). All it takes is a decent team, cupcake ooc schedule, and a good inter-division draw.

"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted

by Zoltar on Feb 15, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Still doesn't happen very often for a whole bunch of teams

"You go out there and dominate the man you're playing against, and you make his ass quit! - Coach Nick Saban.

Actually it's 14 National Championships now. We're winning them so quickly I can't keep up.

by 12NationalChampionships on Mar 11, 2012 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then why doesn't the University of Texas have more than four National Championships?

They have the deepest talent pool, more money than they can spend, a state that is crazy about football, and a legislature that is willing to do whatever to help the University win.

"I solemnly swear to tell the truth as I know it, the whole truth as I believe it to be, and nothing but what I think you need to know."

by TX_HogFan on Feb 15, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Marcell dareus.

"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted

by Zoltar on Feb 15, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

TX

did win a NC recently, and played for another, before gonig through their current tough spot. I promise you if Brown doesn’t turn things around in a hurry, they’ll get someone who can win the whole thing. Of all the teams I’m worried about, Texas isn’t one of them. Remember 4 NCs is really a whole lot when you consider how many teams are out there, it’s top 5 in the coutry kind of stuff.

"Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body."
― Seneca

by NJBammer on Feb 15, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

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