ACC Officially Adds Pitt and Syracuse
After the news broke yesterday that Pitt and Syracuse applied to join the ACC, we get news this morning that the ACC presidents have made it official. This might be the catalyst to get everyone else moving, as the SEC and Pac-12 have been taking pains not to look like aggressors. Neither wanted to take the first shot, so John Swofford did it for them.
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So...
are we stuck grabbing leftovers from the post-apocalyptic Big East and/or Big 12? Seems like the ACC is closing it’s ranks. Missou is starting to make the most sense to me.
'neath the orange and blue victorious
I think the bigger question
Is what does the Big10 do? They’ve been kinda silent too. If you are Mizzou, wouldnt you prefer the Big over SEC? Or maybe SEC adds both WVU and Mizzou but then who else?
by WVU-Atlanta on Sep 18, 2011 11:06 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Missouri is going to be one of the most fought-over schools, I think. There’s been enough chatter out of the SEC to suggest it’s interested, but it’s also an AAU school. That makes it attractive to the Big Ten and Pac-12 as well. According to some people who think they know what’s up, the Pac would go for Kansas and Missouri if Texas and Texas Tech went to the ACC.
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we kinda got stuck
We can’t go back to 12 and we can’t stay at 13. I guess its a new lesson, when it comes to expansion you have to roll like Noah, 2 by 2.
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 18, 2011 11:29 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
It’s certainly a cleaner process doing two at a time, that’s for sure. Plus, the Big East doesn’t have a Baylor equivalent who is convinced that it’s getting left out of the superconference era. They all have to play nice to try to get one of the ACC’s final two spots should Texas and Texas Tech not take them.
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yeah
I just get frustrated that a lot of people are acting like we played this well. I’m not really blaming Slive, its just circumstance. But if we could go back in time and see that we’d be forced to basically choose between Mizzou and WVU, I don’t think we’d view that as things going our way. I said yesterday I’d view it as a failure if we got stuck with WVU, and I still think that. I don’t think we can avoid it, but its still not where we wanted to be 3 months ago.
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 18, 2011 12:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe I'm just a homer, but
I really don’t get the hatred you guys have towards WVU. We have 2 very solid programs in both major revenue sports (football and basketball), our games are frequently gain high ratings when nationally broadcast, we have a respectable stadium that could easily be upgraded with access to more money, we fit the same mold as SEC teams in the sense of a larger school in a football crazy more rural area, our fans will travel pretty much any distance, and we access as much as the Pittsburgh market as Pitt does, if not more, and that’s not to mention the DC market. A HUGE amount of our alumni end up in Pittsburgh and DC. Not to mention our fans are SEC-like in their rabidness.
Where does this hate stem from? If you’re basing it off Appalachian stereotypes, then kindly bugger off. WVU’s environment is really barely any different from Kentucky’s. Not to mention, we’ve proved that we can compete with the SEC. (Georgia, Auburn, Mississippi State in football, Kentucky in basketball.) Our geographical position is not absurd compared to the rest of the league. Morgantown is a GREAT tailgating city.
Please hop off of your high pony. I understand that we don’t bring a Georgia-like or Florida-like prestige or revenue to the SEC. There aren’t many potentially homeless programs that do. Sure Missouri has the Kansas City market, but that is NOT a college football crazy area, period.
Sigh… I’m sorry for whatever and annoying you guys on your own board, I just really don’t understand why so many people look down on our program so badly, despite what we’ve achieved. It’s bullshit.
by MountaineerAirman on Sep 18, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
no offense
But if you were such a great get, you’d already be gotten. It’s not about appalachian stereotypes, I would have gladly taken Va Tech. You’re just not what I wanted. You’re an eastern school to me. Your rival is Pittsburgh for gods sake. If I would’ve listed all the schools I thought we would’ve ended up with before we made it down the list, it would’ve been Va Tech, FSU, Clemson, NC State, Louisville, Mizzou, TCU, WVU. That’s not even counting longshots like OU or UNC. Sorry. We screwed the pooh on this.
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 18, 2011 4:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Seriously?
Louisville over WVU? Their rival is Cincinnati, for Christs’ sake. WVU enjoys more success than NC State AND Louisville. Clemson or TCU bring very little in access to new areas (no to mention TCU wraps up VERY little of the Dallas-Fort Worth market, and have a TINY alumni base, and can’t even fill their already small stadium.) Yes, I can see why Virginia Tech is over us, I get that. I can see why you guys would want Florida State, despite the “gentlemen’s agreement” and Clemson. Missouri… I don’t get as much, I would put them at around our level but without the rabid fanbase. UNC is a basketball school and that’s never, ever going to change, and the ACC just cemented it’s future. OU is going to the Pac-12, I think we all know that.
The conferences are going up end up at 16, I think that’s pretty unavoidable. My ideal scenario would have us going along with Virginia Tech, to give us a solid rival, and a solid POTENTIAL rival in Kentucky.
I get that you have other programs you prefer, that doesn’t offend me in the slightest. It’s that you consider the SEC taking WVU as a failure? That, sir, in this homers’ eyes, makes you a complete tool, but that’s almost only opinion and carries very little weight.
by MountaineerAirman on Sep 18, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
yep
Letting yourself get so boxed in that you really only have 2 choices. That’s a failure. Do you really think that Slive and the presidents would have started down this road had they known that it would’ve led OU and Ok State to the Pac whatever, Texas to the pac or ACC, the ACC locking down their members in a 20 million buyout, and us with nothing to show for it but A&M and WVU? Come on. We were justifiably timid and now we’re stuck. But hey, that’s just me. There’s tons of people on here that are happy about it. And I haven’t heard tool used as an insult since ’98.
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My only objection to WVU
is based on academics. It’s not that WVU is academically inferior to Miss. State or one of the lower end SEC schools, it’s that the Mountaineers don’t enhance our academic profile at all. Expansion is a rare opportunity in this regard, and all other things being equal I’d prefer more Mizzous and Texas A&M’s. Or a school without the current academic cache of those two, but with a higher ceiling, like FSU.
Culturally WVU is a fine fit. Not exactly “Southern,” but neither is Florida, really, nor Texas A&M.
I won’t complain at all if WVU joins the conference, but you wouldn’t be my first choice.
Because if it's about Brantley going in the ocean, the answer is "No."
Since we're doing rankings
I’d have it OU, FSU, VT, Clemson, UNC,Mizzou, WVU,UCF,Boise,ECU
I’m going to go ahead and assume that we’re not getting the first 5.
The only thing I have against WVU is it’s not really in our geographic region and I’m skeptical of their tv markets. Either way I think the point is moot and they’ll be added along with Mizzou as 14/15, which leaves #16. UCF is a total homer pick since I’m an alum and live here, but I think they have a lot of potential. I would love to see Boise, geography be damned, just because there a really entertaining football team and that’s what this is all about anyway. I hate to see them remain out in the cold. East Carolina is another out of the box pick, but they have a rabid fan base, would give us a foothold in NC, they are probably already the best football team in the sate and they would fit in really well with the SEC both geographically and culturally. I don’t understand why there is interest in Louisville or N.C. State
d-wade=d-ouche
by captainamerica* on Sep 18, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
it's far from Appalachian stereotypes (btw, how do you pronounce that word in WV? This could be a deal-breaker)
have you ever heard Rocky Top (woo!)?
I’ve heard some academic worries and worries about WV being closer to the Northeast than the Southeast. As has been pointed out, your big rival is Pitt. No problem with the products on the field/court.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Sep 18, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I can get behind WV
But only if you go back to burning couches. Anti-fun laws like that just won’t fly in the SEC.
Trust me...
…couches are still being burned, laws be damned. Seriously.
I get that our academics aren’t the best, but honestly… with more money, comes better things all around and that INCLUDES academics. We have a great track record with Rhodes scholars, etc, and maybe when I get some more time I’ll track down a previous post elsewhere and bring it here so as to give actual facts and not sound like the complete homer that I am.
The geographic issue I understand but seems to worse than Missouri. Yeah, we are a little further north, but that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. The SEC doesn’t get ALL of their recruits out of Florida and Georgia, Maryland routinely provides great recruits as does Virginia, 2 states that WVU recruits in, as does PA and Ohio. WVU doesn’t sit in a great television market, no, but just about every tv set in the state is tuned in to every game, not to mention when televised nationally WVU routinely brings in huge audiences to their games. We’ve had one huge thing going for us recently; exciting offenses. First with Rich Rod and his innovative version of the spread, not so much with Bill, but now with Dana and his “Red Bull,” or “Mountainair” offense. We play exciting games. When Holgersen gets to recruit his own players, you damn well bet we’ll be exciting. We also have a fantastic defensive coordinator in Jeff Casteel and routinely have one of the best defenses in the nation when our defense isn’t super young, like this year. I believe WVU still holds the record on ESPN for most viewers for a Thursday night game. Scoff at Thursday night if you will, but that’s still something.
I appreciate the other responses on here that are a little less aggressive and more reasonable. I’m not trying to make the case that WVU should be the SEC’s first pick, or that they should throw themselves down at our feet and beg us to come. We obviously, especially now, need the SEC more than it needs us, I’m just trying to make the case of why we fit, why we work, and why it would be a good idea.
Also, incipient, it really depends on what part of the state you’re from, because I hear both, but I usually hear it pronounced “App-a-la-chun,” not “App-a-lay-shun.”
by MountaineerAirman on Sep 18, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry I offended you
It wasn’t my intention, honestly. I dont think anyone’s being aggressive. This an sec blog, I’m a fan of the sec. I gave an opinion and I told you why I have it. Nothing I said is unreasonable. I just don’t want WVU.
by Mark Mandingo on Sep 18, 2011 5:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm sure
that I am too being a little aggressive. I live for football season and I live for the only sports team I grew up caring about, period, getting back to the BCS and showing the rest of the country what we’re about.
So now that the future of our program, a program that has accomplished a lot in a location where that would be extremely hard, is in serious jeopardy, it makes me very, very uneasy.
by MountaineerAirman on Sep 20, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I like WVU to the SEC.
I think a part of the problem with WVU is being perceived as a Big East team, which is not a particularly selling line on a resume right now. But that doesn’t mean that WVU is no good; it just means the conference is a weak BCS conference.
But WVU is wild and crazy enough to fit in very well with the SEC. WVU/LSU would be awesome in either location, and you’re similar enough to Tennessee in Appalachian-ness to make that one fun, too. The WFVU schtick is no nuttier than Alabama or Auburn. And it’s very good in both basketball and football.
by David Hooper on Sep 18, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand your passion and I respect that, but you are wrong about Kansas City.
Please reference this article from the Kansas City Star which shows the average adult in Kansas City is more interested in college football and basketball than the SEC average. The basketball difference is especially dramatic. Keep in mind virtually no one cares about KU football. If you stumble across a KU game on FSN, you’ll know by the empty stands – unless they are playing Mizzou, of course.
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/08/29/3108519/pecking-order-whats-next-for-mu.html
I have been fighting a losing battle on the Missouri boards trying to educate my own fanbase. They believe the B1G is offering at this moment, which I do not believe. I think the B1G believes they are too good for Missouri, and many Missouri fans look down academically on the SEC. The sad truth is that when comparing the old Big 12 to the SEC in terms of academics, the SEC is actually a little bit better than the Big 12 when comparing the academic average of the conference members.
While Missouri has some nice things going for it (solid school athletics, academics much better than WVU, the #21 & #31 tv markets, only D-1 school in the state, #26 overall in CFB attendance and approx. 5k more fans/game than WVU), I am hoping both WVU and Missouri eventually end up in the SEC. There is no need to make this a WVU vs. Missouri debate simply because no one reading these boards makes any decision about the process. I think the athletic programs at WVU speak for themselves just like the ones at Missouri do.
Finally, in regards to the current members of the SEC, if Missouri does end up in your conference, I understand if you are mad because you wanted another school or our membership interrupts a treasured rivalry. Please know that when Nebraska left our conference for the Big Ten, it left behind the 3rd longest rivalry west of the Mississippi River in the Missouri-Nebraska Bell, which spanned 1892 – 2010. Nebraska did dominate this rivalry for many years, but from 2003 to the last game in 2010, I’d like to think the hatred and passion was back to a level that would be on par with any rivalry your teams might have.
In fact, Missouri will probably lose 3 of their 4 trophy games (Oklahoma & Iowa State being the others), with only the Missouri – Kansas Border War remaining, if it can be scheduled out of conference. But there are new rivalries – Arkansas, for example, which stole Frank Broyles away from Missouri in 1958. Wonder why the two schools never play despite being neighbors? Under Coach Pinkel, Missouri has done well against SEC schools (7-1 record) and Missouri’s been one of the most successful programs in college football over the last 4 years.
Should we end up in the SEC, please understand some of our fans are going to be disappointed. They will get over it when they experience the tradition and passion of the SEC. And if we do become a member of your conference, come to Columbia, MO. Drop by Shakespeare’s Pizza, Harpo’s, or the Shiloh Bar and Grill. If you weren’t impressed by the 18,000+ fans that showed up for ESPN Gameday (which was a record) or the performance last year against Oklahoma, perhaps you can’t be impressed. And that’s okay.
"When among evil companions, try to fit in." - Wild Bill Donovan
I have a hard time believing
that stat about being interested in football. I will say I can believe it about basketball, but not football. Regardless, If all fans are as passionate about Missouri as you then i’m all for MIssouri.
by Aaron.50cal on Sep 19, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that WVU would be a solid move.
I’m not totally convinced it’s going to happen yet, but I won’t be disappointed if it does.
Gotta move quick
Just two days ago the vultures were circling the the ACC and now they are in a position of strength! Wonder if the SEC is more willing to fudge the geography now with limited options. That or paying exit fees for Florida St.
by SenorChuy on Sep 18, 2011 11:56 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Slive is certainly a much different commissioner than Roy Kramer was. Ol’ Roy saw a vision for a 12-team league and just went after it. Of course, there were a lot more independents back then (FSU, South Carolina, etc.) to make the process easier.
Slive is a lawyer by trade, and his condition of taking A&M only if others waive their legal rights is a total lawyer move. He’s trying to do this process while walking on eggshells, but we’re getting to the point where assertiveness is necessary.
Team Speed Kills -- SBNation's SEC Blog
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Slive is universally respected and above reproach, but I agree with the poster above who is concerned about the endgame with WVU. If WVU and some combination of ragtag Big East schools are the best available primary targets for the SEC, I wonder if Slive would have taken back the A&M addition. It seems to have started a process which is going quicker than anyone expected and/or wants.
I doubt the exit fee would stop the SEC from grabbing FSU, or one of a few different ACC schools.
If VTech were to ask for inclusion, the SEC would work with them to pay off that fee as well.
But with the possible exception of NCState, pretty much every North Carolina school is out of the question now, though it would have been nice to have a footprint there for both football and basketball.
by David Hooper on Sep 18, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not dialed into the mechanics of the ACC, but do you think NC State or any other ACC team would jump now? They have trouble competing at the highest level in the ACC, and it wouldn’t get any easier in the SEC. Plus, with this expansion the ACC is due for TV re-negotiations.
my personal opinion
is that NC State would have a better chance of competing in the SEC than the ACC. Like South Carolina (who didn’t really compete in the ACC back in the day), they’d go through a rough period, but they’re overshadowed by UNC and Duke, both of which are less than 20 miles away. They go to the SEC, and they have a selling point. In fact, they become the only school in the state (a state that gets some decent talent) that can promise SEC football.
Also, as a North Carolina resident who had Tennessee/Florida preempted for Duke/BC, we seriously need some SEC programming.
Heel for school, Vol for life!
Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!
by Incipient_Senescence on Sep 18, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
What I_S said is probably best.
In my view, NCState may be better able to create its own identity in the SEC as opposed to the ACC. Right now, it’s #3 of 4 schools in its region. In the SEC, it’d be the North Carolina school. And that might actually help with recruits. They could rotate noncon games with the other NC schools, but still get a chance to take on SEC schools with regularity. Some kids won’t go for that, but some would. They would at least have a selling points that the others don’t have.
by David Hooper on Sep 18, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think the Big East is in danger of dissolving.
The member list will drastically shift, but the combination of whoever’s left and the Big 12 stragglers will make a workable conference. As long as the conference exists, their AQ spot will be almost untouchable for a long time, even if the teams are terrible. Try to take an AQ spot from a conference that’s only in this position because of vulturous other conferences, and that’s when you’ll see the major league lawsuits start.
The Big 12 might not exist in 24 hours, so there won’t be anyone left to file suit. Not to mention it’s going to be hard for Baylor/ISU to make a legitimate claim against the SEC when they’ve already got their skirts hiked for the Big East.
Because if it's about Brantley going in the ocean, the answer is "No."
Now, if this all blows up
and takes down the BCS with it, then who knows.
Because if it's about Brantley going in the ocean, the answer is "No."
As for who #14 is...
if the FSU fanbase is anything to go by, they want it to be them. The addition of Syracuse and Pitt is further proof, as if any were needed, that the ACC leadership is almost entirely basketball oriented.
As a Gator, nothing would please me more than to see them stranded in a basketball conference they can’t stand. My only worry is that I don’t know if the three SEC schools supposedly in this “gentleman’s agreement” can withstand the pressure from the rest of the conference, if they all start drooling at a first-tier program desperate to join. You’d imagine that UF has a bit more pull than SC (no offense) in these political dealings, but you never know.
I just hope that team 14 goes directly into the East. Adding another West team makes the divisional alignments almost untenable. The prospect of Auburn coming East (thereby canceling UT/Bama as an annual rivalry) is awful, as is moving both Auburn and Bama East, which would (IMO) result in an almost Big 12 South power situation, at least in terms of traditional strength. Assuming that 14 is Mizzou or someone, and not OU.
Because if it's about Brantley going in the ocean, the answer is "No."
IMO, there is no gentleman's agreement.
I have not seen anything about that from anything but message boards. Not a single reporter (even from some of the better investigative groups) has confirmed it. It might be in place, but I have my doubts.
by David Hooper on Sep 18, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Just wait until the B1G decides to grab teams.
I believe they should have moved before the ACC, honestly. They could have peeled off a couple out of the Big East and been in a better position. But if this really goes to completion, they’ll (maybe) grab Notre Dame, who is BE in non-football, along with maybe Boston College and a couple others. Their options are a little more limited now, though.
But if the B1G starts taking in BE teams, that conference may very well dissolve before it can recover enough football teams to eeven be a recognized conference.
by David Hooper on Sep 18, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I really hope one of the Big 12 and Big East survive.
If there’s an AQ lifeboat, then maybe this whole mess won’t be the worst thing ever. If both those conferences go down, though, and any merger is too late to legally save either AQ spot (effectively relegating programs to second-class status for no reason than the greed of others and their own unfashionable status), it really will be the Worst Thing Ever.
By and large these are programs whose fanbases put up with more crap than I can imagine, as it is. To then send them below decks is just revolting, frankly. I know there’s no individual or group who’s deciding who lives and dies in this thing, but damn, this is some coldblooded ****.
Because if it's about Brantley going in the ocean, the answer is "No."
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