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My Assumptions About the Superconference Armageddon

Yesterday, in the wake of the latest conference realignment rumors, I had a good discussion on Twitter with cocknfire and some others about what the Superconference Armageddon might look like. I thought enough about it to put together a list of basic assumptions of what I think is likely to happen if the current conference system goes away.

I post this merely for discussion's sake, and I don't have any idea of a timeline for when this might happen. Also, keep in mind that I was wrong about more things than I was right about last summer. I could easily be wrong about most of the stuff here.

The template is four 16-team conferences.

I don't know whose idea it was originally, but the prevailing wisdom is that we'll end up with four 16-team conferences. People much smarter and better connected than I am are convinced of it, so I'll go along with it. The Superconference Armageddon will be complete when we have four conferences of 16 teams apiece.

Current members of the SEC, Pac-12, Big Ten and ACC are safe.

Those four leagues are the ones that will end up forming the four superconferences, so their current membership is safe. For the purposes of this post, I will call the post-expansion leagues the SEC16, Pac-16, Big 16, and PABC (Post-Apocalyptic Basketball Conference).

The pool of possible superconference members is limited to current BCS conference members.

I can't imagine any of the superconferences dipping into the non-BCS ranks to add to their ranks if for no other reason than pride. Who wants to be the superconference that had to add a CUSA team? No one, that's who. Sorry, Boise State, UCF, and ECU.

Notre Dame will remain independent, and Texas will join it.

If Notre Dame wanted to be in a conference, it would have become the Big Ten's 12th team. I don't think it does, and its non-football schools will be able to stay in the non-football Big East that will survive after the football teams leave for the superconferences.

Texas turned its nose up at the SEC last summer, and operating its own network keeps it from being able to join the Pac-16 or Big 16 (who have conference-wide networks). I can't see Texas joining the PABC or giving up on the Longhorn Network, so independence is all that's left.

Star-divide

The superconference cascade might not all happen at once.

The value proposition for a 12-team conference is clear: holding a conference championship game. Going above 12 is a bit more hazy, especially if you don't operate a television network. Larry Scott and Jim Delany have said publicly that they will continue looking at expansion in the future, but Mike Slive and John Swofford have not.

I make no comment on how likely this is, but imagine this going down. Texas A&M, Texas Tech, and the two Oklahoma schools go to the Pac-12. Texas goes independent. The Big Ten adds Missouri, Syracuse, UConn, and Rutgers. What's there to force the SEC to raid the ACC and/or the ACC to annex the rest of the Big East? Why can't the Big East add the two Kansas schools plus one more football school to survive? The SEC and ACC could take a wait-and-see approach on the 16-team football conference concept.

Now, I don't think that's likely because...

Texas A&M will wind up in the SEC16.

I've seen enough from their fans and a few of their leaders that, if/when the Big 12 explodes, Texas A&M's first choice is to go to the SEC. Who else will join the Aggies is anyone's guess, but they're probably in. Only meddling from the Texas State Legislature could prevent it from happening.

State legislatures will play a part, but only if their universities have leverage.

Speaking of, state legislatures played a big part in two of the last three rounds of realignment, so there's no reason to think they won't have a role in the Superconference Armageddon. The catch is, their powers will decrease if everything happens at once.

Virginia's might successfully keep UVA and VT tied at the hip. Oklahoma's might succeed in making OU and OSU a package deal. Could Kansas' make KU and K-State a package deal? That's iffy, given that it might result in both schools being left out in the worst-case scenario. Could Iowa's force the Big Ten to take Iowa State? Absolutely not. Iowa won't leave the Big Ten under any circumstances, so Iowa lawmakers have no leverage to try to support the Cyclones. I have no idea what Texas' will do. For everyone who says it will do one thing, you can find someone who says the opposite.

You don't have to run the fastest, you just can't be among the three slowest.

Four times 16 is 64. If you take all of the current BCS conference members plus TCU (joins the Big East in 2012) and subtract an independent Texas, you get 66. That means only two schools currently in BCS conferences will be left out in the cold. If Notre Dame wants in the Big 16, then three get left out. Again though, I expect the Irish to remain independent.

So if everyone but two or three teams is safe, then most schools have nothing to worry about. If you can do something well, whether football or basketball, then you'll have a home in a superconference.

Iowa State, Baylor, Kansas State are in trouble.

Iowa State is the most obvious team for that two- to three-team cut. It's in the middle of nowhere, has little fan support, and doesn't excel in the revenue sports. Baylor is in a similar situation, only instead of being in the middle of nowhere, its presence in the either Pac-16 or SEC16 is redundant thanks to other Texas-based schools. Kansas State is like Iowa State geographically, though it's better in the revenue sports. Those are my best guesses for the three that might get cut, with K-State surviving a two-school cut.

If Baylor's sugar daddies in the Texas State Legislature come through again and KSU successfully rides KU's coattails into the PABC, who else might get cut? Rutgers is a good guess, especially if its administration decides big time sports are just too expensive for it. South Florida would be my other guess. Its presence in either the SEC or PABC would be redundant thanks to UF, FSU, and Miami. Plus, it's nothing special in football (yet), and its basketball program is awful. However if the SEC takes FSU, then USF would almost certainly have a home in the PABC. Just don't expect the Florida legislature to stand up for the Bulls; half the time I'm not sure it's aware that it has universities other than UF and FSU to look after.

TCU also might be in danger, merely on some kind of FIFO principle, but it's probably too good at football at this point to justify leaving it out in favor of schools like Baylor, Rutgers, and Iowa State.

The superconferences won't break away from the NCAA right away, and they probably won't ever.

The next step everyone seems to expect after the Superconference Armageddon is that the four big leagues will break off from the NCAA. I'm certain that won't happen right away, because everyone will be too busy assimilating new drones to form a new tier of college athletics.

In fact, I'm not certain that will happen at all. Staying in the NCAA means keeping all the current benefits, most importantly for tax purposes and not paying athletes salaries. Besides, the NCAA doesn't get a cut of the football regular season or postseason money as it is. Breaking off from the NCAA doesn't increase revenue above staying in it, and it potentially opens a legal Pandora's box.

The only thing that preserves superconference stability is a lack of alternatives.

I really don't think 16-team football leagues are a good idea, and I know there will be a lot of hurt feelings among some schools. Guess what? Once the superconferences form, there really won't be any good alternatives. They'll soak up all the big TV money, so no one can get out without sacrificing more dollars than they can afford to do without.

I am probably wrong on a lot of counts.

This is the assumption I think I'm safest on. Plus, we all know what happens when you assume.

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Baylor

Just to defend Baylor — they didn’t get into the Big 12 solely on politics. they got in because once the Big 8 agreed to go to 12 instead of 10, Baylor was the obvious choice. At that point in time, Baylor was the historic third most successful SWC program now that Arkansas was gone. They also were the only availbale SWC team, other than Rice, not on NCAA probation at the time (after Texas and A&M were in the Big 8 fold). Baylor ran a solidly middle class football program by the rules — which wasn’t a small factor. At the time, once the Big 8 decided to go to 12, Baylor was the best choice on the board.

Now, things didn’t work out so well, as Baylor’s football program went from solid middle class to absolute dregs of the nation, but it wasn’t such a bad idea at the time. To this day, they’ve still won more titles than Texas Tech. Baylor’s certainly in trouble now, making it far harder for the Texas legislature to work on their behalf.

And if I’m Cincinnati’s AD, I’m paranoid as hell about conference re-alignment. The bottom half of the Big East is in huge trouble. They need some ACC schools to defect, opening up ACC slots for them. Or else they will be out in the cold with Iowa St.

Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur

by Poseur on Aug 1, 2011 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

A maximum of four schools will be left out, and that’s if Texas gives up the LHN and Notre Dame ends independence. Two is the more likely number. That means there aren’t many schools that need to worry.

The ACC is likely to lose schools to both the SEC and Big Ten. There will be plenty of room for it to absorb whoever from the Big East the Big Ten and SEC don’t take.

Team Speed Kills -- SBNation's SEC Blog
If you're so inclined, follow me @Year2

by Year2 on Aug 1, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Superconferences are definitely a bad idea

But they will happen eventually I’m afraid. And I could definitely see the 4 big names break off and form a Premier League of sorts, with teams likely only having to step down and play one D-1 opponent per year (I’d also expect I-A and I-AA to be consolidated at this point). Other option would be 8 superconferences, which you could achieve with all of the I-AA teams planning on moving up right now. Either way, Notre Dame will be screwed if they stay out of it, which they will because they’re Notre Dame. I’d really rather everybody just go to 12 teams and be happy, but the MAC is already bursting that bubble…

by commodore_dude on Aug 1, 2011 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Notre Dame knows they might be forced to join a conference

They know if a post season requires them to join, they have already said they are willing to do so (they said that last year). Yes they do love being independent, but they will not let them keep them from a college football post season.

by ev on Aug 1, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no inside information about... well, anything at all...

… but I think if the 16-team conference were going to really happen, it would have happened in this past round. Increasing a conference to 16 teams basically forces the entire college football world to change everything about how it does everything. From conference scheduling to a championship game, and potentially even to the number of divisions the conference has. And most controversial rumor about the Pac-16 that Larry Scott was coming up with was that it wanted 2 BCS spots (one for each division champion), which would effectively render a championship game meaningless (if you still had one at all). If every 16-team conference then got 2 BCS spots, well, then that’s 8 automatic BCS spots, plus Notre Dame and Texas in the years that they’re good… which leaves no at-large teams except when ND or UT don’t qualify for automatic spots.

As an alternative, I have a solution that is much simpler and doesn’t require the entire college football world to re-make itself from virtually square one. (I also discussed this recently on Dawg Sports.)


Re-form the Big Eight.

Oklahoma, Ok. St., Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Kansas, Kansas St., and Baylor (or Iowa State, but who are we kidding, the Texas politicos will get Baylor in).

That lineup is a conference that will still be strong enough to be a BCS automatic qualifier, will preserve the basic college football infrastructure still in place, and will also allow Texas to be the independent that they really want to be.

And all without blowing up the whole world.

by vineyarddawg on Aug 1, 2011 1:10 PM EDT reply actions  

How would you even do a 16-team conference schedule? Assuming it's split into

two divisions, that’s 7 divisional games, which leaves room for only one more (two tops) intra-divisional game. The teams in each division would practically never play each other, only in a championship game. Might as well make in 9 teams in each division, with 8 “division/conference” games and then a championship game versus the winner of the other division, but then you’d basically have two separate conferences under one umbrella in name and championship tie-in only.
That is unless they decide to play 10 or more conference games every year, but with cupcake home games being so lucrative that would seem unlikely.

by TexasAUtiger on Aug 1, 2011 2:12 PM EDT reply actions  

This, precisely, is one of the biggest problems with the 16-team format.

If you keep the two-division structure, you’re left with, in essence, two separate leagues. if you form three divisions to help encourage intra-conference play between many teams, then you have the problem of how to decide a conference champion (which can really only be answered with a playoff).

by vineyarddawg on Aug 1, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually like the old superWAC plan

I know that the WAC fans hated it, but I feel like it could be a good idea if you market it the right way.

Basically, have four divisions of four, but pair them up each year into two divisions of eight. However, rotate the pairings. Then play seven games within your division and one game against a set rival from another division (if that rival is in your pairing this year, then the game is replaced by whoever else has a free spot on the schedule).

For all intents and purposes, there are four divisions, but two of the divisions play each other each year, and the best team in either division is selected for the championship. The WAC marketed this as two divisions with rotating members, and that’s why I think it failed. If you present it as four divisions with an inter-division champion, it makes more sense.

For instance (this is just off the top of my head, so don’t hold me to it), if we had four teams enter in the West (say, A&M, Mizzou, and the two Oklahoma schools), it could look something like this:

East: Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, South Carolina
Gulf: Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Auburn
West: Arkansas, LSU, Ole Miss, MSU
Far West: Mizzou, OU, OSU, A&M

One year, everybody in the East plays everybody in the Gulf, and the best team out of either division goes to the championship game against the best team out of the West/Far West. The next year, everybody in the East plays everybody in the West, and the best team out of either division plays the best team out of the Gulf/Far West. Third year, everybody in the East plays everybody in the Far West, and the best team in either division plays the best team from the Gulf/West. Then the cycle begins again.

It’s convoluted, but it still protects four yearly rivalries (three in the division and one outside the division) while rotating games often enough (you play everyone at least once every three years) that it’s still one big conference, not two small conferences with a scheduling arrangement.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

figuring out the protected rivalries there would be tricky

because every time you have a rivalry between two divisions, you have to make sure there’s another rivalry between the other two divisions, so that each pairing opens up the same number of rivalry games. But I figured out a way to do it while only sacrificing one current cross-division rivalry that anyone might want to protect (Kentucky/Miss St).

Tennessee/Alabama
Carolina/Georgia
Arkansas/A&M
MSU/OSU
Florida/LSU
Kentucky/Mizzou
Auburn/Oklahoma
Vandy/Ole Miss

Then, when UT, Bama, USC, and UGA are in one division with each other, so will Arkansas, A&M, MSU, and OSU, each one from one group will play one from the other. When Florida and LSU are together, each can play Kentucky or Missouri (who will also be together). When Auburn and OU are together, each can play Vandy or Ole Miss (who will also be together).

Again, convoluted, but I think not a terrible idea, and definitely the only way to save the conference-ness of the conference.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

(and when I say "one division," I mean "one pairing." superWAC language dies hard

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

And you're basically eliminating the SuperWAC idea's biggest problem

If I remember right, they allowed the far west quadrant to stay in the Pacific Division every year. Tulsa and the Texas schools stayed in the eastern division every year. The middle 2 quadrants rotated yearly.

Of course, that meant the two middle quadrants never played each other, unless it was a protected rivalry. That meant matchups like Utah or BYU vs. Colorado State, Air Force, or Wyoming never happening. It didn’t sit well with the old-guard WAC, and who could blame them.

by parlagi on Aug 1, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're right

I didn’t notice that, but that is another big drawback eliminated. The idea looked crazy on the surface (and still does), but I honestly think it could work if done correctly. And when you have a 16-team conference, all ideas are a bit crazy

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really like that idea

It would take some getting used to, but it would protect traditional rivlaries and prevent the “two leagues” problem.

Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur

by Poseur on Aug 1, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love your East,

but I don’t see everybody else conceding Vandy and UK to the same grouping.

"Lattimore, as the kids can say, can ball, and sometimes does it to the extent one might say [he] is out of control in his balling." - Spencer Hall

by GwinnettGamecock on Aug 1, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree on both points

but I’m having trouble finding another remotely geographical way to work it. Obviously, if we have Virginia Tech and Clemson instead of OU and A&M, it opens up a lot of different options (Tennessee, Vandy, Georgia, Florida in one division; Carolina, Clemson, VT, Kentucky in another. although that plan would kill UGA/USC and UT/VT, which would be a shame).

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually, come to think of it

the bigger problem is that Vandy and Kentucky both want to protect the rivalry with Tennessee, while Tennessee wants to protect the rivalry with Alabama. So at least three of those four teams (UT, Vandy, UK, Bama) have to be in one division, or else somebody loses their biggest rival.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

so I suppose it could work out like this

UT/Vandy/Bama/Auburn in one division and USC/UGA/UK/UF in another. Didn’t think about that before, but it looks fairly workable.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is more balanced and likely.

I still prefer Vandy, UK, and the Vols. I think UT’s days as a yearly power are likely gone forever. They may recover to the level of Arkansas (second tier program that occasionally challenges for a title but usually falls short), but I don’t see them becoming one of the true conference elites in the foreseeable future.

"Lattimore, as the kids can say, can ball, and sometimes does it to the extent one might say [he] is out of control in his balling." - Spencer Hall

by GwinnettGamecock on Aug 1, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

I am a Vol fan, and I understand that Florida and Georgia have certain built-in advantages, but there’s no reason that Tennessee’s program shouldn’t at least be at the level of Auburn.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Auburn is on the same level as Arkansas

The only difference is they are willing to blatantly cheat to get over the hump. Come to think of it, maybe Tennessee IS a fair comparison to Auburn.

"Lattimore, as the kids can say, can ball, and sometimes does it to the extent one might say [he] is out of control in his balling." - Spencer Hall

by GwinnettGamecock on Aug 2, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

and you could still work out the protected rivalries here

you lose UT/Bama and UGA/Carolina, but you can add UT/Kentucky and UGA/Auburn and be just fine. Shift Bama over to the Oklahoma rivalry and Carolina to Missouri. Easy as a lion.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trade UT for Georgia

Georgia is likely to be a more stable power going forward than the Vols anyway, so it slightly improves the balance.

"Lattimore, as the kids can say, can ball, and sometimes does it to the extent one might say [he] is out of control in his balling." - Spencer Hall

by GwinnettGamecock on Aug 1, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't know about that

I see Mark Richt repeating Phil Fulmer’s performance. And Georgia is only 3-3 against the Vols during the worst six-year stretch in Tennessee history.

But otherwise, there’s still the problem of Vandy and Kentucky both wanting the rivalry with Tennessee. Unless at least one of them is in the division with UT, that won’t work.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even though the Big 12 ADs made this moot for the time being...

…I decided to take a whack at divisions and protected matchups anyway.

Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Vanderbilt = Far East
Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Kentucky = East
LSU, Arkansas, Missouri, Ole Miss = West
Oklahoma, Texas A&M, Oklahoma State, Mississippi State = Far West

Protected Rivals:
Alabama – Florida
Auburn – Georgia
Tennessee – South Carolina
Vanderbilt – Kentucky
LSU – Texas A&M
Oklahoma – Arkansas
Ole Miss – Mississippi State
Missouri – Oklahoma State

If you insisted on protecting Vandy-Tennessee, you could make South Carolina-Kentucky and Vanderbilt-Tennessee as protected rivalries, but I seriously doubt any of the other schools want to give Tennessee a guaranteed matchup with Vanderbilt every year. Kentucky being matched with South Carolina would be a similar but lesser problem. The best way to keep the other schools from getting upset is to match Vanderbilt and Kentucky every year.

by Cardina1 on Aug 3, 2011 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Man....

That Gulf division is murder. You have the last 3 national champions in it. I don’t think you could swing that type of system although there is potential in a radical new approach. I’ll be more specific in a later post. I’m going to read everything else first.

by AllTideUp on Aug 3, 2011 5:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't remember who said it first

But a wise person said last summer that if you have a 16-team conference with two divisions, you really don’t have a conference. You have two 8-team conferences with a scheduling arrangement.

Team Speed Kills -- SBNation's SEC Blog
If you're so inclined, follow me @Year2

by Year2 on Aug 1, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, you in effect have two 8 team conferences

Scheduling isn’t hard when you think of it that way. Since the only important thing is playing everyone inside your division and the CCG, why is this really any different than a 12 team conference? Once you are not playing everyone in the conference, the number missed isn’t that important.

by ev on Aug 1, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's not the number missed each year

it’s how often you play them. Playing everyone in your conference at least twice every five years is way different than playing everyone in your conference once every eight years.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

So what?

Yes playing 2 of 8 is a lot less than 3 of 6, but you still are not playing everyone and it’s not even close. Who cares if USC doesn’t play Texas Tech as often, or Florida with TAMU? If it was so important, no one would have more than 10 members.

by ev on Aug 1, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're assuming

that the only thing that really makes a difference is whether you play a team every year or you don’t. Beyond that, it’s all a difference in degree, not in kind, and it really makes no difference what degree is chosen.

But this doesn’t jibe with actual motivations. Ask Washington whether the difference between playing USC once every two years and once every eight years is important. Ask Tennessee fans how they’d like to seriously cut back on the number of games in what as been a great back and forth with LSU. There are motivations like “each recruiting class, if they stay four years, should be able to play everyone in the conference at least once.” “or. . . should be able to play everyone in the conference once home and once away.” These allow you to keep the conference-ness of the conference, even without playing everybody every year. Playing once every eight years really doesn’t.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think UW would be one of the first to want 16 members

A Pac16 would naturally split east/west instead of north/south, they would increase the number of games with USC. While I do agree it would make more difference in a conference like the SEC, it wouldn’t but to a few schools in others like a Pac16 or ACC. The Big10 could go either way as many of those rivalries are more in name than blood. However your argument still works better in keeping conferences at 10 rather than 12 or more, and as we know it didn’t stop the SEC from expanding way back when.

by ev on Aug 1, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

not really

first of all, when conferences were at 10, we still didn’t have a full round robin.

second of all, my argument is that conference unity is important. You’re responding like that means you have to play everybody once a year, because that’s the best way to achieve conference unity. But it isn’t the only way. There are rivals that you want to play every year, but there are other teams that you can play every two or three years and be just fine. That’s enough to maintain a sense of unity, and that’s really all you need. Sure, you could get more unity by playing them every year, but “more unity” isn’t the standard. But at some point, if you play a team once every ten years, you get to the point where there’s no unity at all. We play Notre Dame and UCLA once every ten years, but that doesn’t breed a whole lot of familiarity at each meeting. The line is vague, but there is a line, and it isn’t between every year and not every year.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

The fact the SEC didn't have a round robin works for my argument

They didn’t care about unity back then, or when they expanded. I highly doubt it will if they expand again. I’m not saying you don’t have a point, I actually agree with you. However I’m just saying it won’t matter when deciding whether to go from 12 to 16.

by ev on Aug 1, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just think there's a middle ground between

“cares about unity enough for a round robin” and “doesn’t care about unity.”

I do agree that this won’t stop conferences from going to 16, but I’d hope it would influence those in charge to use something like the idea I sketched above rather than just having two small conferences with a championship game.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate the idea of super-conferences

And even the twelve-team + conference championship format bugs me. But scheduling issues aren’t the fatal problem with them. The problem is this: How does a 16-team football conference make more money per school than a 12-team conference? Especially without adding Notre Dame or Texas?

by drothgery on Aug 1, 2011 3:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Another question is BYU

I know they aren’t likely to get in on the independent side, but if A&M ends up in the SEC without the Oklahoma schools, could the Pac 16 still happen with with the Oklahoma schools, Texas Tech and BYU as the fourth instead of Baylor.

If that happens, then there is another team that gets left out.

by aubievegas on Aug 1, 2011 4:25 PM EDT reply actions  

I would think Kansas or Missouri would be invited before Baylor

Remember the Pac10 didn’t want Baylor last time, so much so they invited Colorado early to cut off any Texas requirement they be included. What is also not talk about as much is the Pac10 asked if Kansas could be included in place of Texas Tech or Oklahoma State. Not that those two schools were deal killers like Baylor was, but that the Pac10 was interested in Kansas. As for BYU, they were a non-starter last time, nothing has changed since then. There are too many existing Pac12 schools who would veto BYU (and Baylor).

by ev on Aug 1, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some of the Pac-12 schools are too bigoted

to let in BYU. They said as much in the last round, though they of course were not honest enough to say “we don’t like religious people”.

"Lattimore, as the kids can say, can ball, and sometimes does it to the extent one might say [he] is out of control in his balling." - Spencer Hall

by GwinnettGamecock on Aug 1, 2011 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

WRONG

Its not bigotry. It is economics, Utah is too small to have two schools from that state. Given the option of Utah or BYU, but not both, why take the school that places undue burdens upon the schedule makers?

Furthermore, the Pac-12 wasn’t alone in rejecting them, the Big-XII did as well, as did the WAC for all non-football sports.

I support the NBA player's union.

by chowder on Aug 1, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

If you want to say some of it was religious, fine because it’s true. Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with them, but I can see how others would. BYU isn’t just “religious people”, those are all over the Pac10. They are a religious school with a capitol R. Everything they decided between who they play OOC and if they will agree or disagree with conference wide policies have to be approved by the LDS. This isn’t ND they would have been accepted, this is much more. However there was a lot more to it than just religion. The fact is Utah is a research school, BYU not so much. That is much more important than you think. The no play on Sunday rule. The fact is the Pac12 didn’t need both and Utah came with less baggage.

by ev on Aug 1, 2011 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do Baylor and BYU have in common other than being religious schools?

As you said, Baylor is an absolute deal-killer. Gee, why is that? Y’all don’t like religious schools. At least have the courage of your convinctions. Don’t call Baylor a deal-killer, compare them directly to BYU, and then argue it doesn’t have to do with religion. OF COURSE it has to do with religion.

Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur

by Poseur on Aug 1, 2011 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I seem to remember reading somewhere that one of the problems the Pac-10 had with BYU was their opposition to playing on Sundays.

"I thank God I was warring on the gridirons of the Midwest and not on the battlefields of Europe." -- Nile Kinnick
~~ Never gets old.

by HawksNation on Aug 1, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Pac10/2 plays a lot of their sports on Sunday

Not sure something could be worked out or not, but it would have been a problem.

by ev on Aug 1, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, no one wants Baylor

Even the current members of the Big-XII wish Baylor wasn’t in their conference, so why is it ‘because of religion’ when another conference refuses them and acknowledges them for what they, a terrible addition?

I support the NBA player's union.

by chowder on Aug 2, 2011 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Baylor

is, in the words of one Texas posted on the CFN boards, an “itty bitty church school.” “Itty bitty” is as much of an issue as “church school”, as is the fact that it’s in freaking Waco.

BYU is an issue partially b/c they’re a “church school”, and partially because of all the other baggage (little research, not just a church school but a CHURCH SCHOOL, not playing on Sundays, etc.). I think it’s fair to note that the Pac-x has issues with church schools in general, but I also think it’s fair to note that both BYU and Baylor have meaningful warts on top of just being church schools.

If there was an otherwise across the board fantastic candidate that happened to be a church school, then it’d be interesting to see how the league and its members would react. But such a candidate doesn’t exist, so we’ll never know.

by cfn_ms on Aug 3, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another school that may be in trouble if this comes to fruit is Cincinnati

I realize that only a short season ago they went 12-0 and were in a BCS bowl (where they proceded to get the shit knocked out of them by Florida), but before that they had little or no football success to speak of. They are located in a large city, but that is often more a hinderance in the college game than a help (see: Northwestern, Temple, BC, etc.). They are completely overshadowed in their own state by their bigger brother (OSU). They only have a 30,000 seat stadium. I also remember reading somewhere on ESPN that their athletic department was having financial troubles.

If the superconferences rise, my call is for Iowa State and Cincy to be left out.

"I thank God I was warring on the gridirons of the Midwest and not on the battlefields of Europe." -- Nile Kinnick
~~ Never gets old.

by HawksNation on Aug 1, 2011 4:28 PM EDT reply actions  

But Cincy at least has a decent basketball tradition

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Aug 1, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes but its now a well-known fact that basketball comes second (and a distant second at that) to football.

And in Cincinnati is NOT one of the few schools* that have a strong enough tradition or large enough fanbase where that argument can be turned on its head.

*See: Kentucky, UCLA, UNC, Duke, Syracuse, Louisville

"I thank God I was warring on the gridirons of the Midwest and not on the battlefields of Europe." -- Nile Kinnick
~~ Never gets old.

by HawksNation on Aug 1, 2011 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea where there i put an 'in' in the there

Damn non-exsistent edit button

"I thank God I was warring on the gridirons of the Midwest and not on the battlefields of Europe." -- Nile Kinnick
~~ Never gets old.

by HawksNation on Aug 1, 2011 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

If super-conferences happen, I'm out.

I’ll still follow my beloved Gamecocks and go to games, but the rest of the college football world will slowly die in my mind. I just won’t like the pro-sport feel of it.

by Charlestowne on Aug 1, 2011 4:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Although I would probably die if my addiction to college football was not fulfilled

I see where your coming from. Pro sports and college sports are inheritently different and I for one prefer the college feel.

"I thank God I was warring on the gridirons of the Midwest and not on the battlefields of Europe." -- Nile Kinnick
~~ Never gets old.

by HawksNation on Aug 1, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

College is definitely better than pro. There are so many things about the game that have nothing to do with the level of competition that make it special. That’s part of the reason I am still not a big fan of the NFL.

by AllTideUp on Aug 3, 2011 6:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could easily do without an NFL season

but if college football had a lockout, I would probably literally die.

"A school without football is in danger of deteriorating into a medieval study hall."
Frank Leahy / Notre Dame

by Gamecockrock on Aug 3, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Super conference realignment......

Ok, I’ve been thinking about it and I think I may have a solution to how these 16-team superconfderences could work out the scheduling.

Someone else will have to do some analysis because I’m too tired to worry about it right now, but here goes….

What might work is getting rid of the divisional model altogether. Instead of having 2 8-team divisions or 4 4-team divisions you simply get rid of it altogether. Now naturally there are some long standing rivalries that need to be preserved and you can do that if you take 2 or 3 games out of the season and save those for important rivalries. You really need to add a 9th conference game to ensure a greater number of conference teams being played. In fact, you might even add a 10th and that could work better than you think because you have to remember that 4 16-team superconferences are probably going to form their own division within the NCAA. There’s no reason to break away from the NCAA, but there is already talk of a BCS division becoming the new Div 1-A or FBS or whatever you want to call it. Playing teams from lower divisions is not going to be as desirable because you just don’t need to do it that much. Playing teams from other superconferences may also occur, but once you’ve got your prime OOC match-up you don’t need to worry about anything else because the new larger conferences with the championship game takes care of the requirement to play a strong OOC schedule. Everyone will be on a new playing field with new stronger teams coming to their conference.

The number could be debated later, but basically what you do is rotate the rest of the conference games on the schedule. Don’t worry about pairings or making sure you have the right competitive balance in each division. Geographical concerns aren’t really important either, that’s just the convention we’ve been working with so long that we automatically insert it into any solution. Rotating 7 conference games rather than 2 or 3 allows you to play a greater number of teams on a more regular basis. That’s the unity we were talking about earlier.

Instead of using predetermined alignments to come up with who could potentially match up in the championship game you just take the top 2 teams from across the conference. You will certainly need tie breakers along the way to pick those teams, but I think this is much more workable than breaking the teams into divisions. You are always going to have competitive imbalance in the various schedules that teams will play, but there is no way of avoiding that because teams rise and fall even though we predict future success based on past success. The thing is, that you already have that factor at play now.

Take last season for example, the 4 best teams in the conference were all in the West. You could also make an argument that Miss St was just as good as South Carolina who won the East. So there is no way of predicting with any regularity who will be good even if you try to match teams up in divisions based on that very idea.

What do y’all think?

by AllTideUp on Aug 3, 2011 6:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I cant see the SEC going after missouri

I think the SECs top choices for expansion would be Clemson, FSU, Texas A&M, and either OU/Okla St.

"A school without football is in danger of deteriorating into a medieval study hall."
Frank Leahy / Notre Dame

by Gamecockrock on Aug 3, 2011 11:58 AM EDT reply actions  

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