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Sprints Thinks Tennessee Fans Will Regret Bryce Brown for a Long Time // 08.12.10

Oh, this is going to get very interesting
It's hard to know what to select from ESPN's story on Bryce Brown vs. Tennessee, because there's a lot of good stuff for a short story.

NCAA investigators have asked to speak with running back Bryce Brown about the recruiting practices at Tennessee under Lane Kiffin, Arthur Brown, Bryce's father, said Wednesday.

And Arthur Brown says they'll cooperate soon now that they're done with the appeal of Derek Dooley's ridiculous refusal to grant Brown a release from his Tennessee scholarship.

"Bryce has tried to express why they should reverse the decision," Arthur Brown said. "We expressed how he has felt. We laid out a lot about our family's struggles with illnesses and stresses. I feel we made a good case for an overturn."

Either way, it looks like it will be a while before Tennessee and Bryce Brown are completely free of each other.

'More high-profile cases,' but that might not mean more cases
A couple of interesting things from a USA TODAY story on the Agentgate and other investigations. First, the number of major programs facing an inquiry?

Star-divide

"It's probably true," says David Price, the NCAA's vice president for enforcement services since 1998, "that we have more high-profile cases now than what we've had in awhile."

Second: A little bit more on just how long the NCAA has been waiting -- very patiently -- to see its agent work pay off.

The number tends to be cyclical, he says, though he attributes the recent surge in agent inquiries to a more than 10-year push in that area.

Which is probably why they annihilated Southern Cal, and why no one should be sure how far the NCAA will go if any of these guys played while ineligible.

NFL scouts are still welcome at Florida
No one else is per Urban Meyer's "paranoid Woody Hayes" imitation, but the scouts are allowed on campus.

Well, that's optimistic
You know, trash-talking from a quarterback or a wide receiver or a defensive player -- even when the other team is as strong a favorite as Alabama will be against San Jose State -- can be a nice touch for a game. From the kicker ...

"We're excited we get to go knock them around," said kicker Harrison Waid, a redshirt freshman from Fremont High in Sunnyvale. "If we can beat them we'll remember it for the rest of our lives no matter what else happens."

Waid is in some ways very lucky, as Nick Saban will most likely laugh instead of trying to draw any motivation from the quote. In the end, after all, it's still San Jose State.

Brian Cook: Michigan and Alabama will play
The mgoblog author insists the Death Star game between the Tide and the Wolverines is on its way.

My source re-iterates: it is happening, with all three parties set on an agreement and just waiting to announce it when everything gets dotted and crossed.

I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe this won't happen, but we'll see.

Bobby Johnson returns to Vanderbilt
But only for a day. And a 49-second interview.

Jacksonville to take up Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party contract
No real surprise.

Remember him? (I)
Nu'Keese Richardson is transferring again, from Hampton to a Kansas community college, apparently with an eye on returning to FBS. Yeah, that should turn out well.

Remember him? (II)
Chris Smelley, former South Carolina QB, is leaving the Alabama baseball team.

Mississippi flag attacked by ... Southern, um, interlopers?
The SEC is not apparently thrilled with the idea of holding its baseball championship in a state with the Confederate battle emblem in its flag.

"It would not be a 100 percent deal breaker on any kind of bid that Jackson may submit. However, it would be something we would have to consider in evaluating all the bids," said Craig Mattox, the SEC assistant commissioner for championships. ...

Republican John Moore, a Mississippi state representative, said the Confederate emblem should be no more offensive to anyone than a picture of a cotton ball on a T-shirt.

Sigh.

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The hypocrisy of the flag-bashers never ceases to amaze me.

During the controversy about the battle flag flying over the South Carolina capitol building, we heard that the problem was that it went up in 1961 (to celebrate the centennial of the War) and stayed up after 1965 (by which time it had become emblematic of stonewalling against civil rights). The flag ultimately came down.

During the controversy about the Georgia state flag, we heard that the problem was that the flag was adopted in 1956 (two years after Brown v. Board of Education), and so was a symbol of segregation. The flag ultimately was changed.

Now there’s grousing about the Mississippi state flag, which was adopted in 1894, three years before Faulkner was born and two years before Plessy v. Ferguson was decided. It couldn’t possibly be a symbol of opposition to court-ordered desegregation because we were still 60 years away from court-ordered desegregation.

I can at least understand the arguments in Georgia and South Carolina; griping about the Mississippi flag, though, is asinine.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 12, 2010 7:26 AM EDT reply actions  

I can't agree with you

The 1890s have been described as “the nadir of race relations” in American history. Pointing to the fact the Confederate flag was added to the state flag during that era as evidence it is not a racist symbol is entirely unconvincing to me.

Ultimately, I think it is up to the group being offended. For example, if the Seminole tribe is cool with the FSU mascot and some guy throwing a flaming spear into midfield – then I’m fine with it, too. But if a large group of African-Americans find the Confederate flag offensive, then I’m erring on the side of caution (this is dodging the thorny issue of – who speaks for a constituency?)

Without saying the Confederate flag is as racially loaded as the swastika, the swastika had all sorts of non-racial connotations before the Nazis, and many of them positive. But good luck putting a swastika on a flag, as the Nazis have forever tainted the symbol, despite its original meaning. I believe the same thing to a lesser degree with the Confederate flag. Whatever meaning it once had has been rendered irrelevant by the white supremicists, who have effectively co-opted the symbol. Sure, we can try and claim it back, but state flag might not be the place to start.

Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!

by Poseur on Aug 12, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

are you really comparing the confederate flag with the swastika???

The confederate flag IS NOT a symbol for slavery. It was not used as propaganda to promote slavery. The confederate flag does not belong on spring break t-shirts and beach towels, and yes ignorant trash may have given it a bad name to the ill-informed. I don’t think having it on Mississippi’s State flag is an effort to try and “claim it back” since it has been there since 1894. Everything is going to offend someone, and you can’t sterilize our history.

by WILDashellCAT on Aug 12, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you'd read the post.. not really, no

I’m talking about symbols get co-opted. The Confederate flag may or may not be intended as a racist symbol, but that is irrelevent as it HAS been co-opted by the white supremacist movement. The Confederate flag, unfortunately, is the symbol of racist white supremecist. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be against symbols of the white supremacist movement (and to be clear – I am not saying, nor do I believe, that all people who fly the Confederate flag are white supremecists – I just acknowledge they have unfortunately co-opted the flag)

Once again, it was placed on the flag in 1894 for a reason, and that was a time of extreme racial disharmony. That is the depths of the Jim Crow era.

Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!

by Poseur on Aug 12, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

You did compare the two.

 I refuse to concede that the battle flag of The Confederacy is now “their” (white supremacists) flag. Unfortunately, they have used it, and to many that is now what it represents. I don’t fly the flag, but I know what it means to me, and it certainly has nothing to do with hate in my eyes.
For many of us, it represents not only the history of the South, but our family history. History of ancestors who are all too often demonized for the wrong reasons. We cannot just give that away to be politically correct, and we sure as hell cannot let racist trash take that symbol and turn it into their own. Seeing those assholes wave our flag makes me sick, but the problem is them not the flag.

by WILDashellCAT on Aug 12, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair point on the 1890s, Poseur.

I simply bring it up to note that opponents of the flag in Georgia and South Carolina consistently pointed to the civil rights-era pedigree of the use of the battle flag in those states. Obviously, that argument does not apply in Mississippi.

While I certainly understand and respect the view that hate groups “have effectively co-opted the symbol,” I’ve never understood why we have allowed marginal groups of bigots to taint honorable symbols, or why we have applied that principle so inconsistently. When the United Brethren and the Methodist Church combined in 1968 to form the United Methodist Church, they adopted as their symbol the Cross with two red flames coming out of it. By that point, obviously, the burning Cross had become (and yet remains) the most visible and visceral symbol of groups like the Klan . . . yet sensible people still managed not to confuse Methodists with Klansmen. (This is a great relief to me, since I am a Methodist.)

Likewise, the Klan has appropriated the American flag for its own wrongheaded purposes, as well, yet no one believes white supremacists have co-opted the American flag. There seems to be no good reason for singling out the Confederate battle flag for special disdain just because hate groups have misappropriated it along with other symbols which, somehow, seem to have escaped that taint.

Can’t we all just agree that hate groups don’t know what they’re talking about and treat all the symbols they’ve tried wrongly to claim as their own as though such groups never got their grubby hands on them? As an American, a Christian, and a Southerner, I don’t believe we should allow such groups to besmirch the honorable and admirable heritage of my country, my faith, or my region.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 12, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair point as well

But I would submit there is a difference between the Methodist symbol of the holy spirit represented by red flame surrounding the cross and actually burning a cross. I’m not aware of the Methodist practice of actually burning crosses.

And I do think there is a distinction between the Confederate flag and the American flag: I think those who have tried to co-opt the American flag to stand for some racist ideology have largely failed. Just because they have tried to co-opt it doesn’t mean they have succeeded. I think the Confederate flag, in popular imagination, is far more tied to the white supremecist movement due to its prominence in the Civil Rights Era.

And I join you in having nothing but disdain for the Klan. I am also proud to be a Southerner, an American, and a Catholic, but I show my pride in the South in ways other than the Confederate Flag. I’m actually a big fan of the Bonnie Blue.

I’m just glad we can have the discussion without hurling epithets at the other.

Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!

by Poseur on Aug 12, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Careful, Kyle.

If we bring too much attention to this, they might figure out what we did in Georgia when we reestablished the version of the CSA flag that now flies above the Gold Dome. I already have to bite my tongue when explaining to people what “Stars and Bars” means.

by NCT on Aug 13, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

That’s the most humorous part of the whole Georgia flag ordeal to me. Most people don’t understand that the Stars and Bars is not the Cross of St. Andrews (Confederate Battle Flag). The way that was played in Georgia is hilarious. Those against the former flag felt they won (in having the flag changed), while the rest knew they were secretly duping those very people.

by hailtogeorgia on Aug 13, 2010 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

On the other hand

Some would complain (and have complained) about maintaining a Confederate symbol in our current flag. However, the Stars and Bars flag was not coopted by white supremacists like the battle flag was, so those of us who value hanging on to some form of regional symbolism didn’t lose it as I believe we have lost the St. Andrews Cross version.

by NCT on Aug 13, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL...

Republican John Moore, a Mississippi state representative, said the Confederate emblem should be no more offensive to anyone than a picture of a cotton ball on a T-shirt.

Wow. You rednecks never cease to amaze me.

It doesn’t matter how many football games the SEC wins. We will always look down on you.

by devidee33 on Aug 12, 2010 8:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Consider this a warning

There are ways to have civilized discussions, but this isn’t it.

And everyone else, please don’t feed the trolls. Thanks.

Team Speed Kills -- SBNation's SEC Blog
If you're so inclined, follow me @Year2

by Year2 on Aug 12, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I apologize..

I really do. But defending the conferedate flag? Really?

This justifies as much ridicule as possible.

It doesn’t matter how many football games the SEC wins. We will always look down on you.

by devidee33 on Aug 12, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t agree with it being displayed for anything but the purpose of documenting history, but ridicule is rarely constructive when talking about controversial topics.

Team Speed Kills -- SBNation's SEC Blog
If you're so inclined, follow me @Year2

by Year2 on Aug 12, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough...

I just think that engaging in an intelligent conversation with someone who is trying to defend the confederate flag is a non-starter.

It doesn’t matter how many football games the SEC wins. We will always look down on you.

by devidee33 on Aug 12, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

With all due respect, you are mistaken.

Follow this link if you’d like to close some of the gaps in your understanding.

This has been a public service announcement.

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 12, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you win...

you get to fly your flag.

The South got it’s ass kicked. Thus, you fly the flag of the victor and no other.

It doesn’t matter how many football games the SEC wins. We will always look down on you.

by devidee33 on Aug 12, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure which is more astounding, sir, . . .

. . . your ignorance or your arrogance.

I apologize profusely for my futile attempt to educate you.

In the words of Les Miles (a Michigan man, so you ought to cut him some slack, even if he does coach in the SEC): “Have a great day!”

Go 'Dawgs!

by T Kyle King on Aug 12, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

So...

British people and ancestors living in the US shouldn’t fly the Union Jack, the Scottish and Irish can’t fly their ancestral colors, Mexicans living in the United States (say California) can’t fly the Mexican flag in front of their house? Just wondering where you draw the line, exactly?

by Charlestowne on Aug 12, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Individuals can fly any flag they want...

state run institutions shouldn’t fly the flag of an enemy…past or present.

It doesn’t matter how many football games the SEC wins. We will always look down on you.

by devidee33 on Aug 12, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Scotts

were conquered by the British and are currently part of the UK, but the Scottish Parliament still flies the Scottish flag. I am sure I could find other instances of this being the case, if I looked for it.

In the case of GA and Miss, its not even an separate flag being flown by ‘state run institutions’, its a historic banner that is incorporated in the contemporary State banner.

And as for the ‘redneck’ comment that started all of this… I would like to remind you that the Jerry Springer Show is filmed in Chicago with mid-western ‘guests’.

by Charlestowne on Aug 12, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Scotland

The flag of Scotland is part of the flag of the UK, even (as is an Irish flag and an English flag — poor Wales).

by NCT on Aug 13, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Union Jack..

does combine the flags of Ireland, Scotland and England… which would actually go to solidify my argument about the GA and Miss flags including the confederate flag… however, my most recent point was that the Scottish Parliament flies the Union Jack and the Scottish Saltire of Saint Andrew (the Scottish banner). Which is a State institution flying the flag of a conquered people (‘enemy’) that is the heritage of the region.

by Charlestowne on Aug 13, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Last time I was in the UK ...

The Scottish still got to use their own currency, even.

by NCT on Aug 13, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I had not seen that before....

Thanks Kyle…. good read. I think that if this issue is to continue, all sides need to be better educated on the subject. There is way too much pure emotion involved without the understanding of the history (both for and against). It is a complex issue, and as a South Carolinian, I would like to say that I like the compromise that was reached. If for no other reason then the negative attention it was bringing to the State, some kind of compromise had to be found.

by Charlestowne on Aug 13, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

let me guess gator fan?

"Sympathy has expired Longhorns" WallaceWade04
"We are certainly not worried about Alabama until we play them" Urban Meyer
"We should have known" Pete Carroll

by The Voice of Reason on Aug 13, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

your post

If you can’t join a sensible conversation with relevance and intelligence, your post is more of a reflection on yourself and less a commentary on the others involved.

by Charlestowne on Aug 12, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahh, the good ol' Power T.

Non threatening, not controversial. A sea of tranquility in the maelstrom of UT athletics.

Back on topic, I can see both sides of this argument. In my job (archaeology) I’ve done a lot of work on Civil War sites, which has brought me into contact with a lot of people deeply invested in this issue on both sides. As alluded to by the ongoing discussion above, I don;t think there are any easy answers.

by danmarcel on Aug 12, 2010 12:55 PM EDT reply actions  

I was going to write a whole post about this, but I'll just respond with a few thoughts here

First, let’s not pretend that the South did not secede because of slavery. That is an historical fact. Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens:

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. [Emphasis added.]

The other thing to remember is that the Confederate flag represents an attempt to tear this nation apart. No matter how valiantly anyone’s ancestors (including my own) fought, that was the purpose for which they fought, even if they didn’t have an interest in slavery. And most didn’t. Shelby Foote tells this story:

There’s a story of how some well-fed Northern soldiers closed in on this Southerner, malnourished and raggedy. They said, “What are you fighting for?” And he said, “I’m fighting because you’re down here.” …

Southerners were fighting in defense of the right to do what they wanted to do. For the most part, the Northerners didn’t give a damn about slavery, either. They were fighting to preserve the union.

But the C.S.A., institutionally, was founded because of slavery. And anyone who fought for it was fighting to dissolve the United States of America. Those two things are facts.

I’m glad South Carolina (my adopted home state) took the flag off the Statehouse. I am not glad it still flies on the Statehouse grounds. I am proud of my ancestors, but they fought on the wrong side of history, and as John McCain put it:

I don’t believe their service, however distinguished, needs to be commemorated in a way that offends, that deeply hurts, people whose ancestors were once denied their freedom by my ancestors.

I don’t have a vested interest in what happens in Mississippi, and I’ll admit that it’s different than the South Carolina case because it is part of their state flag. But let’s not pretend that there’s no reason that black people — or even many white people — would be offended by the flag or by having it incorporated into their state flag.

Yes, if you want to fly it on your own time and for your own reasons, that’s fine. But for a state to fly it is wrong. And I would simply ask why the states of Mississippi and Georgia felt it necessary to change their state flags to include the Confederate symbol in racially divisive times. (Poseur is right about the 1890s, which is part of this history minor’s specialty period; racism infected not just the politics of this nation, but everything, from the science — eugenics was a respectable field — to the culture — the 1893 World’s Fair was full of stomach-turning presentations — to the very notion of manhood itself.)

Each state has the right to decide its flag. But it doesn’t have the right to change history to justify that choice.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Aug 13, 2010 1:37 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Thanks....

This was my point. Stated eloquently.

It doesn’t matter how many football games the SEC wins. We will always look down on you.

by devidee33 on Aug 13, 2010 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

1893 World's Fair

We should not forget that the World’s Columbian Exposition was in Chicago (one year late in its purpose to commemorate the 400th anniversary of the conquest of superior Europeans over New World savages).

by NCT on Aug 13, 2010 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, the South seceded because of slavery...

as well as several other issues, including states’ rights. Your quote from Alexander Hamilton Stephens is interesting, but there are very easily obtainable quotes from other noted dignitaries of the CSA who openly state that The War of Northern Aggression (I use this term jokingly) was based on other issues.

Slavery may have been the kindling to the fire that was the war, but there was much more to it. Lincoln knew how to play the political game, and he used the slavery issue as something to garner support. Slavery was a perfect topic for Lincoln to bandwagon, and it worked. For every Southerner who was fighting for the reasons Shelby Foote conveyed, there were equally as many Northerners who were duped into thinking they were fighting for the freedom of slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation was groundbreaking and 100% necessary, but the fact that it only freed slaves in the southern states (and not in the northern states) is just as telling about the motivations of Lincoln as your quote from Alexander Stephens is of the South’s.

Finally, I still ask the question that I’ve always wondered about since I was a child: In 1861, in a country where fewer than a century had gone by since the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution, what made the South so out of line for wanting to declare its own independence? I understand the unconstitutional argument, but isn’t that completely hypocritical?

by hailtogeorgia on Aug 13, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Emancipation Proclamation

It only applied to the South because Lincoln issued it as an Executive Order within his powers as Commander In chief. The southern states were in rebellion and he could issue a “war order” regarding them. It didn’t apply to the North because it would have exceeded his powers and would have had to go through Congress.

After the war in which the North acheived “total victory”, the terms to come back into the Union were pretty simple: pass the 12th, 13th, and 14th Amendments and have a percentage of your population swear loyalty to the Union. Since the North could impose pretty much any terms it wished, we can clearly see their war aims: free the slaves, make black men citizens, and preserve the Union (a Union in which the states could not end round the Bill of Rights).

Let’s put it like this: we argue about states rights to this day, we do not argue about slavery. The Civil War settled the issue. If the Civil War was about another issue, why do the North not impose those terms?

Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!

by Poseur on Aug 13, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair point on the Emancipation.

That was an oversight on my part. I understand the reasoning for the legality as to why the South wasn’t allowed to secede (and why the North would push to retain the Union as a whole), but that still doesn’t change the fact that the law itself is completely hypocritical from a historical perspective. If it was okay to start the country on the premise of secession via taking to arms in 1776, it doesn’t make sense to go against that same thing less than a century later.

As to your last question, the North didn’t find it necessary to impose those terms, because there was no real reason for them to do such a thing. Why would the North compromise on an issue such as states rights when it didn’t have to do so? They were already doing the South a “favor” by allowing them back into the Union with few repercussions, so why would they loosen their grip around the privates of the southern states regarding states rights? Additionally, an issue such as slavery is very easily classified as wrong, and is also easily rectifiable (in the legal sense). You outlaw it and that’s that. States rights are largely opinion based, so if the Powers at Be decide states rights weren’t an issue (which is basically what happened), then they aren’t going to be changed. The denial of human rights in a literal sense (slavery) is hard to argue with, the denial of human rights in the collective form of states rights, however, is much different and easier to do. That’s why we’re still arguing about it.

by hailtogeorgia on Aug 13, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

The states' rights to do what, exactly?

Southern leaders did not just wake up one day and decide that the states should have more rights, and so they should secede. The issue was the states’ rights to set their own policies about slavery. And if “there are very easily obtainable quotes from other noted dignitaries of the CSA who openly state that The War of Northern Aggression … was based on other issues,” please obtain them. I would place only one term on the request: They have to be from before the end of the Civil War. Many Southern leaders later backtracked on their reasons for the war afterward, for a variety of political and legacy reasons.

There were actually fewer Northerners “dupted into thinking they were fighting for the freedom of the slaves” than you might think. In fact, many disagreed with fighting to free he slaves; the war was in their minds one about union. The Emancipation Proclamation was more of a diplomatic war aim than anything else; it was an effective way to keep England and Frace out of the war, because the populations of those countries would not have supported a war that appeared to be about slavery.

Finally, there were several philosophical differences between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. There was no representation for the colonies in Parliament; there were fewer political and civil rights for Americans than for Englishmen; and the legal status of the colonies was decided by England, not by the colonies, which was not the case in the South. (We can get into the constitutional arguments about secession, if you like, but I’m trying to keep this simple.)

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Aug 13, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would disagree with your position..

While slavery may have been most recent and ‘immediate’ cause, the issue of slavery isn’t why the Northern Navy blockaded the South in the lead up to the war. It is not the reason that South Carolina fired on Fort Sumpter. That was about taxation of agriculture and the Southern States refusal to have heavy export taxes imposed on their goods.

I would also argue that if slavery was the main issue for the North, why did it take till 3 years into the war and till a time where the US Congress was waiving on the issue of continuing the war for Lincoln to give the Emancipation Proclamation?

I will not argue that slavery was not a main issue, since it most certainly was. The Southern economy was not sustainable with out it. But this war, like all wars, was economic first, social second.

by Charlestowne on Aug 13, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

the issue of slavery isn’t why the Northern Navy blockaded the South in the lead up to the war. It is not the reason that South Carolina fired on Fort Sumpter. That was about taxation of agriculture and the Southern States refusal to have heavy export taxes imposed on their goods.

Actually, no. The Northern blockade was response to secession, and the South firing on Ft. Sumter was a response to a Union attempt to resupply it.

The tariffs and duties arguments were of a part with arguments over slavery; the slave-based economy favored freer trade with European nations, while the industrial economy of the North favored protectionism. But those schisms had been present for years and could have been resolved without war. The South did not see issues like protectionism as a basis for secession; it did see slavery as that important.

The main issue for the North was not slavery; it was union. But slavery was a main, if not the main, issue for the South. And it was very much an issue related (in Southerners’ mind) to the economic well-being of the region.

Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

by cocknfire on Aug 13, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

On a less sensitive but kinda related topic.

Proposed: Eli Whitney was reponsible for the Civil War. He was responsible for (a) promoting the ideas of interchangeable parts in manufacturing (especially in weaponry), a specialized division of labor, powered manufacturing machinery, and total-cost accounting in manufacturing, which led directly to the success of the Industrial Revolution in the more industrially developing North, and (b) the cotton gin, which made the labor-intensive industry of cotton production King in the South, which led directly to economic pressure on the South to maintain cheap labor.

Discussion isn’t necessary, of course, but it’s a fun thought exercise, no? Kinda like the Brechtian notion that Galileo is responsible for nuclear arms.

On the other hand, I GOT MY SEASON TICKETS MONDAY IS IT FOOTBALL SEASON YET? WOOT!

by NCT on Aug 13, 2010 10:51 PM EDT reply actions  

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