Why not Houston?
by blackertai on Jun 13, 2010 7:40 PM EDT
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PrintEd.: Promoted.
So, like everyone else, I've been following the expansion chronicles pretty closely. And, like everyone, I laughed when I read the "news" the University of Houston slipped in during this period on their "new stadium" and all. But then, I started thinking: Texas doesn't want to join the SEC, but it seems pretty clear that A&M is interested. Houston, a Conference USA air-raid-ish team, isn't a bad idea for a couple of reasons.
After looking into it, I've found that Houston is the 3rd largest university in Texas (>Tech, it seems), and receives a large amount of research dollars in state. The university itself is not a great one. US News & World Report lists it as a Tier 4 school, lower than other targets like Oklahoma (low tier 1) and OSU (a tier 3 school). However, individually, it has a number of well respected programs (the law school and architectural schools are particularly well thought of, apparently).
After the academics, which I grant aren't great (but, in comparison, Mississippi State is a tier 3), the money edge more than makes up for this. If the SEC's goal is expansion for monetary gain of member institutions, as implied by the stated lack of interest in ACC schools, then expansion into Texas is the #1 goal of this move. UT won't budge on its unwillingness to join the SEC, and A&M will. Why bring A&M into the league alone? A 13 team league is clearly not doable, and I doubt that Slive would let that take place. Bringing A&M and Houston together gets a top market squarely in SEC hands (Houston/Dallas would definitely come, due to high numbers of alumni for both schools). This also gives most SEC West schools an every year 2 game chance at recruiting in Texas, spurring the movement of the conference west in terms of opening 2 of the 3 major recruiting hotbeds to conference teams (Florida already being reasonably controlled by SEC interests).
Also of note? The "Shocker" is apparently the hand-symbol of choice amongst sporting fans there. Called the "Cougar Paw," although the comparison is hard to grasp for me. Similarly to many SEC teams, the Cougars also have a live mascot (Shasta). According to the Houston Athletics Wikipedia page [link], they compete in many of the sports, both men's and women's, sponsored by the SEC, notably missing a women's gymnastics squad. The Cougars' football squad is clearly not the best in Texas, however, they're definitely on an upward trajectory in terms of recent play, with a new coach (Sumlin, formerly of OSU) and a widely known desire to build a new, larger stadium. Cougars basketball is no slouch, being widely known for Phi Slamma Jamma in the early 1980's, it is a reasonably respectable addition to the SEC in that 2nd major sport.
I submit that adding A&M along with Houston would solidify a western front for the SEC with a strong foothold in two key schools in Texas, the larger and more respected A&M and the smaller but more importantly situated (and up-and-coming) Houston.
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My only issue, ironically enough, is academics
I think everyone knows I’m not really convinced that academics can or should decide conference realignment matters. But, man, Tier 4 — that’s pretty bad. From a financial and competitive standpoint, I think Houston could be a good fit if they worked on the defense. Even that’s a bit of a stretch. There is something to be said for having some academic reputation, though, and Houston wouldn’t help that.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Yeah
When I saw that, I was similarly dismayed. However, if it comes down it, I’d much rather a 14 team league than a 13. I’m not sure how likely a successful raid on the ACC would be, after their new contract.
Tier WHAT? Here's the real deal on academics at UH
The University of Houston is a strong academic university that compares favorably with Big 12 schools like Colorado, Missouri and Kansas in measures like the number of National Academy members, degrees awarded, and total enrollment.
UH has many nationally ranked programs, including the Law Center, Chemical Engineering, Social Work, Entrepreneurship, Creative Writing, Hotel & Restaurant Management, and many others.
In 2010, 7,181 students graduated from UH – and more than 235,000 degrees have been granted since the university’s founding in 1927.
There are more than 3,500 UH alumni who serve as president/CEO of their companies.
It's a bunch of things...
If you’re going to divide the pie one more way, it better be worth it. aTm brings money AND old rivalries. They fit in many ways.
Houston has no rivalries with any SEC team, to my knowledge. And I doubt it would bring in the type of money that would justify such a move. I agree that the SEC needs another team to get to 14, but I don’t think it’s going to be Houston. If it comes to just one and UT, OU, OSU, and VT are off the board (as they look right now), I think Baylor over Houston; even then I think FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech ,and Missouri (in that order) are all over those two.
Fair
But, Baylor adds rivalries? I’d much rather Houston come for the monetary reasons alone. It has over double the enrollment (and therefore a larger alumni base) that Baylor does. The only reason Baylor is involved in this discussion at all is the corpse of Anne Richards.
Wrong order...
Mizzou should be the fourth option (after UT, OU, & VT). They are as well respected as OSU in football and basketball at this point and bring more markets and better academics (as if that matters). Getting people in Kansas City, St Louis, and even Chicago (where many Missouri grads end up) to be interested in and watching the SEC provides significantly more value than additional teams already in the footprint.
See
I think, unlike the Pac or Big 10, we actually have a regional pride thing going. Missouri isn’t in the South East. We stretched our boundaries mightily with Arkansas, but Mizzou isn’t getting an invite.
Half of Missouri is absolutely southeast ... at least culturally speaking.
Part of what makes Missouri unique is that the northern half of the state is basically Iowa and the southern half is basically Tennessee. (Missourians even fought against themselves for a good portion of the Civil War.) Clearly it’s not tremendously southern on the map, but the culture would be a pretty good fit with the SEC. Not perfect (half is still Iowa, after all), but … if the conference really is looking to expand its footprint, you could do a lot worse.
Rock M Nation
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Truthfully
I’m just against adding more tigers to the conference. I’d be willing to accept Mizzou if they changed mascots.
Tigers!
Oh, come on! Let’s add Memphis to the mix and have an all tiger division!
by AuburnMisfit on Jun 15, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Houston
Yes, the market is great in size, but support for the Cougars is low. The city of Houston is owned by UT, then A&M, Tech, and then Houston. Once you include pro sports teams UH is way down on the list. They have potential (but they have been saying that for years).
Mountain West Connection The best site for MWC sports!
Houston will support a winner, and UH is on the way back up
UH football enters the 2010 preseason with a Top 25 ranking, three preseason All-Americans including Heisman Trophy candidate Case Keenum, and seven televised games including non-conference matchups with UCLA, Texas Tech and Mississippi State.
Top-notch facilities are planned, with a feasibility study recommending a new $120 million football stadium with 40,000 seats and Phase II expansion to 50,000+ and a $40 million renovation to the basketball arena.
UH Cougars have won 61 NCAA individual championships and 17 NCAA team titles, played in 20 bowl games, five NCAA Final Four men’s basketball championships and two College World Series.
UH has produced some of the finest athletes in the nation, including 849 All-America Award winners and 65 Olympians earning 39 medals.
The problem is, as always, with schools like UH that have success. The star player will graduate, the coach will get hired away and UH will be back at the bottom of C-USA. Yes, that happens in the SEC, too.
Back in 1990, an alum gave $127 million for a new athletic facility so UH can compete on the same level as UT and A&M. At the time, that was the most money ever given to a university for an athletic facility. The idea being that it would attract the premier athletes. That never happened. UT, A&M, et al were unkind to UH after the SWC broke up, leaving UH to flounder for years and that facility was, apparently, never leveraged to get UH top recruits.
I’m not trying to be anti-UH, I’m just pointing out that UH has gotten the short end of the stick, IMO, undeservedly.
by AuburnMisfit on Jun 16, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Check your facts
You have a tenuous grasp on the facts here. The donation came at the end of 1991 and it was $51 million. The money was used in part for the new Moores School of Music and the new Alumni center.
UH was reeling from a multi-year bowl ban and had a second scandal related to new coach John Jenkins in 1992, who resigned. We played some of our worst football from 1992 to 1995, right when the conference broke up. We were outsiders when the breakup of the SWC came, unfortunately. If you look at how we performed when we were in the SWC, UH was one of the best teams—better than baylor by far and better than TT, too, who made it into the Big 12.
It won’t happen this year, but see how this evolves. UH has over 100,000 more alumni today than we had in 1990 and, as Jim Nantz put it, is “an unpolished gem”. The future for the SEC is in Texas, and Houston is a good fit. IMHO, better than Baylor, TT, Memphis, SMU or TCU (or Rice).
Yes, my brain is rusty. I was there during the Jack Pardee and John Jenkins days.
by AuburnMisfit on Jun 16, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree, houston has stepped up their ooc schedule.
last year they beat all three aq bcs teams and this year they have ucla, miss. state, and texas tech. they bring back case keenum plus eight other starters on offense. i’ll say that houston will lead the nation in ppg. the defense returns 6 players and can only get better. east carolina the best team in the other division is weaker so i expect houston to win conference u.s.a.
I'm all about covering the spread and moneylines. Craig Thompson just might end up being a savvy guy if he gets the MWC to 12 teams. The University of Utah starts in the Pac-Ten in 2011. Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean, I mean plumb, mad dog mean. cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live or win. That's just the way it is. "The Outlaw Josey Wales". To protect the sheep you gotta catch the wolf, and it takes a wolf to catch a wolf. "Training Day". Rashad will beat Rua b/c he is a far superior wrestler and a bad matchup for him. 2/1 odds. Josh Koscheck will dethrone Gsp and win the welterweight title. Last man to win a round vs Gsp. 2.9/1 odds on that too. Peace.
by wolfmanshowlforever on Jun 23, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Some may say Rice even might come ahead of UH. Rice at least has the academic respect to back them up.
by formerlyanonymous on Jun 13, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The baseball would be glorious?
Also, [insert long-winded idiocy on improving conference academic reputation that doesn’t really mean anything here].
by formerlyanonymous on Jun 13, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd just like to point out...
that the “tiers” that US News and World Report use in their rankings aren’t solely about academics (at least, I’m pretty sure they’re not). Also, there’s no Tier 2 for some reason, so that puts Mississippi St.‘s and Ole Miss’ Tier 3 ranking in perspective. But, places like Arkansas-Fort Smith, Miss. Valley St., and Southern Miss are also Tier 4 universities, and they’re certainly not getting an invite.
Aside from an upset-minded football team, I really don’t think Houston “fits in” with the rest of the SEC in academics, profile, or athletics.
Houston isnt a fit for the SEC
I dont think it fits in any way. I think you would do better to get Baylor actually.
Houston is the BEST fit for the SEC in Texas and a great destination for SEC road trips
With UH in a major athletic conference, Houston will have a nationally competitive college athletic program to bring national exposure to the city.
Houston is the nation’s 10th largest media market and the nation’s 4th largest city. UH is this city’s university, with nearly 217,000 alumni in the area. UH has the potential of adding one million new TV viewers to the conference portfolio.
UH is located in a thoroughly international city with a diverse population, creating an international Mecca for business and cultural expression. Recently ranked as the country’s third-most livable city, Houston – the largest city in Texas – is the world capital of the international energy industry and home to the world’s largest and most prestigious medical center.
Twenty-five companies on the 2010 Fortune 500 list are headquartered in the greater Houston area, placing Houston second in the nation behind New York.
A&M and VT are by far the best options.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
Uh
I wasn’t suggesting turning down A&M for Houston. After reading all the articles on the unlikely nature of VT’s joining the conference (and I, like you, would prefer that to Houston, no question), I’m trying to reach out and find other reasonable options. Miami’s essentially said no, Ga. Tech isn’t a real option, FSU is decent but would damage the recruiting of Alabama, Auburn, Georgia and Florida, and Clemson doesn’t bring any monetary reasons for addition.
You must be laughing at whole lot of other schools in Texas, too
UH has a number of the highest rated undergraduate and graduate programs in Texas. Architecture, Social Work, Hotel/Restaurant Management, Creative Writing, Optometry—the list goes on…in fact you would be hard pressed to find a bad program or degree here. More National Merit Scholars over the past 25 years than just about any other school in the state. One of the top Honors Colleges in the US.
I think objective analysis of the University of Houston gives the impression of a great school which will be the first University in Texas to EARN a Tier One designation (UT and TAMU were designated Tier 1 by state legislation in 1990 and were given all of the necessary funds)
If we had to add another team
it definately shouldn’t be Houston, if they were attractive addition, why wouldn’t the big 12 just add them to replace Nebraska? I don’t see anyone that increases the conference prestige or adds $ to tv revenue, without a match of significance I don’t think we add a & m because of scheduling headaches.
Mmmm
Why not use them to replace another team? Because, unlike the SEC, Texas already has the entire Texas market at their disposal. Houston doesn’t bring them anything. For us, at least Houston gets us into markets we currently aren’t in.
that's what I said just to clarify
"IF they were attractive addition, why wouldn’t the big 12 just add them to replace Nebraska? They add nothing to the big 12 & if the big 12 doesn’t want them why would the SEC?
Because
We need different things. The Big 12 doesn’t need more TV sets in Texas. They’ve got that. The SEC doesn’t, and the SEC most likely only has 13 members as of right now. Adding FSU/Clemson/Miami/etc. doesn’t add sets. Florida already has sets throughout the state. South Carolina isn’t large enough to split or matter in terms of TV marketing. Where does the SEC go for more sets? West. I’m not saying we HAVE to add Houston, I was just making a reasonable suggestion. If you’ve got DOABLE alternative suggestions, go ahead and present them. But the same-same “Va. Tech, FSU, Clemson” don’t get us anywhere. Thinking outside of the box. That’s what we do here.
But Houston doesn’t get us substantially more than what aTm does. aTm gets the SEC well into the texas market; adding UH after that just adds a little bit, not worth $20 mil a year. But I do like the outside-the-box thinking. Who else is in (or near) the South that we might take?
by Andrew Tessier on Jun 14, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
If that's the case then...
Having Mississippi State and Auburn don’t add anything to the SEC now (which is complete hogwash).
Houston has more local UH alumni (200,000+) than UT, TAMU, TT and Baylor COMBINED.
The Houston SMSA is bigger than Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana—about the same size as Tennessee. And we love football here, too.
Adding Houston and TAMU would get the SEC control of the Houston market and access to DFW, Austin and SA television markets, too.
If Texas goes independent..
It could still be a win for the SEC, we could schedule a rotating game in cowboy stadium of SEC teams vs texas for 20 million split 50 /50 between sec & texas. The second game of the year could be ( starting 2012 Texas/ Ole Miss, because this is already scheduled just move it to dallas stadium instead of home & home then they could play auburn, tn, ark, fla, bama, lsu, ga
Texas could also make this arrangement
Texas could also make this arrangement with the big 10…with this arrangement with the 2 conferences, that would be 20 million for 2 football games & that’s more than the NC pays… and you still have room to schedule your oklahoma and a & m games at austin
As a Houston native, a couple of things:
1. The state of Texas passed a “Tier One” related bill last session. They plan on bumping 2-3 of the state’s weaker Universities to Tier One status. Houston and Tech are the top two targets, with UTSA being the third potential target (hence the formation of their football team). It will take a few years before the dollars start rolling in, but the academic profile will rise dramatically in stock over the next decade.
2. Currently, Houston doesn’t bring in a whole lot in terms of viewership right now. Their fan base is decidedly small. Think Tulane in Louisiana or Florida Atlantic in Florida as examples. Sure, being bumped to the SEC would bump their fan base size, but I think the point of expansion right now is to prey on already established TV markets. That’s why you’d want Texas or A&M when it comes to expansion, not some small market like UH.
3. Houston also isn’t a huge sports market oddly. Despite being the 4th largest city in the US, you’ll notice how small market their pro sports teams are. Sure the Astros and Rockets have had some success, but they are in no way going to steal media exposure from teams like St Louis or Philadelphia. A team like UH isn’t going to get you a very big market and won’t really get you too much across the state. The State as a whole leans very much toward DFW teams. I’d say 75-80% would be a Rangers/Cowboys fan over Astros/Texans. That’s at least been my observation.
by formerlyanonymous on Jun 13, 2010 11:43 PM EDT reply actions
No closer than TAMU and UT, or TAMU and Baylor
and don’t forget that Ole Miss, Miss St., Auburn, and Alabama are pretty close together, too.
Alright
See, this is helpful. I was unaware of the Tier One bill, but that makes sense. I’m sure the SEC has no real interest in Tech as it is out of reasonable driving distance. Looking at Google Maps, it seems that A&M/Houston are within 15-16 hours of driving, while Tech was remarkably distant.
Do you have any other reasonable suggestions? In terms of Texas teams, then? Is Rice a doable option? Any other places we can go?
Its all about tv market $
so I don’t know if adding in markets you already have ie adding clemson when you have south carolina, or ga tech when you have uga. I just don’t think a &m comes to the SEC without Texas.. and like I said the sec conference teamscould play Texas as an independent in Dallas. I think that makes the most sense for the sec.
I'm actually starting to think A&M would come without Texas
They want it. They would fit in pretty well. If Texas gets a sweet deal somewhere and A&M can get into the SEC, I think all parties could be very happy. It’s probably not really in A&M’s interest to do it, but hey, it’s what they think they want.
by formerlyanonymous on Jun 14, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Question
Why don’t you think it’s in A&M’s interest? I mean, the money would be better, they’d be out of big brother’s shadow, and they’d save money on travel (I’d imagine). What would the benefits be of the Pac-10 trip? Retaining conference membership with their current rivals would be the one benefit I can see.
Big Brothers shadow is also a big money maker
A&M’s personality is all based around Texas. They’re school fight song is all about beating “TU” (what they call UT). Their purpose in everything is showing they’re better than Texas. If they leave Texas, who are they really? They lack any other true rivals. Sure, the Tech series is exciting and Tech sees it as a rivalry, but A&M doesn’t care. They want the Longhorns.
Splitting them doesn’t guarantee that the rivalry stays as strong. And without that key part of their history, they’re just some meh athletic school with strong academics.
by formerlyanonymous on Jun 14, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
For example
The end of their fight song?
Rough, Tough, Real stuff, Texas A&M
Saw varsity’s horns off
Saw varsity’s horns off
Saw varsity’s horns off
Short! A!
Varsity’s horns are sawed off
Varsity’s horns are sawed off
Varsity’s horns are sawed off
Short! A!
WHOOP!
UT is a defining part of TAMU. Splitting them screws all sorts of things up.
by formerlyanonymous on Jun 14, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Georgia/Georgia Tech
Each fight song mentions the other, and they are not in the same conference. Problems?
I don't think anything past UT or A&M would be the home run the SEC wants
They may have a shot with a TCU or SMU, maybe Baylor. TCU doesn’t seem like they’d fit in “culturally” for whatever that might mean. SMU, I don’t know what to make of them. They’d probably get pretty good in roads into DFW. They once had a great following during the SWC days, but that whole death penalty thing….
Baylor, as bad as they’ve been in football would probably be the best consolation prize if you are just shopping Texas. They have a bit of momentum with Griffin at QB. Basketball is solid. Baseball and other sports are there. They’d probably also be an academic boost. But it is just like adding another Vandy.
by formerlyanonymous on Jun 14, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
From the BON comments, you wouldn’t think much of Baylor as an academic school. Plus, it’d be like asking a slightly larger Wake Forest to join the conference in terms of admission numbers.
Taking both UH and TAMU would be an SEC coup d'état
You would get 12 SEC games played in Texas every year, which would be great for conference recruiting. The SEC would dominate the Houston Market (which is HUGE, and a natural fit for the SEC), plus access to all of the other major TV markets in Texas.
Assuming UT would prefer the Big 12, Big 10 or Pac 10, this is the best fit for the SEC and makes the conference a player in Texas
Houston broke Archie Manning's arm in 1970.
Forty years is not long enough to get over it.
Eschew obfuscation.
forty years is a long time to hold a grudge. lol.
i’ll bet archie is over it and when you break a bone it comes back stronger when it heals. it carried over to his sons.
I'm all about covering the spread and moneylines. Craig Thompson just might end up being a savvy guy. Hell is just a word, the reality is much much worse." Event Horizon". Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean, I mean plumb, mad dog mean. cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live or win. That's just the way it is. "The Outlaw Josey Wales". To protect the sheep you gotta catch the wolf, and it takes a wolf to catch a wolf. "Training Day". Rashad will beat Rua b/c it's a bad matchup for him. 2/1 odds. Josh Koscheck will dethrone Gsp and win the welterweight title. 2.9/1 odds on that too. Peace.
by wolfmanshowlforever on Jun 14, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
UH is not SEC material
As an alum for both UH and Auburn, I can tell you that UH does not fit in culturally with the SEC. I’m not going to rehash some of the comments made already about the academics at the school. There are some programs there.
UH is a big city school that is not big on sports. The majority of the students do not live on campus. That being said, it is very difficult for UH to build a large alumnus fan base that can give money to its athletic programs the same way SEC schools have that luxury.
When I was at UH for my undergrad it was during the waning SWC days. UH played in the Astrodome back then but could not muster a majority of the fans at the stadium even during the winning seasons (88-89). Since then, the Cougars have moved back on to the smaller campus stadium (40k but rumored to have plans for expansion to 50k).
On one hand, it’s nice to hear my old school being mentioned in these circles, but the reality is that UH is not a fit for the SEC under current circumstances. While there is some tradition and pride at UH (Carl Lewis, Phi Slamma Jamma, golf championships), those days are long gone and with (arguably most) students/alums not really caring about the sports side of UH, I don’t see that turning around any time soon.
The "shocker"
The “shocker” hand sign has been around for decades. For some reason, the SWC schools like hand signs, I guess, because they need something anti-UT.
The sign is supposed to represent “UH” with the index and middle finger forming the “U” and first part of the “H”, the folded ring finger representing the bar in the “H”, and the pinky forming the second bar in “H”.
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