Conflicting Interests: Why Urban Meyer and David Weeks Are Wrong
Because the "real" job makes it harder to post with any regularity -- and because the hiring of Tony Barbee is about the only non-game news right now -- allow your humble correspondent to catch up on a couple of stories that he missed this past week as budgets and major education reform began working their way through the Florida Legislature.
Starting with Urban Meyer's rant against an Orlando Sentinel reporter. Anybody paying attention to the SEC over the last few days knows the basics of the story, and I sincerely doubt that anything I say is going to change anyone's mind. Most of those who like Urban Meyer the way he is are going to see this as another example of his leadership of men; those who don't are going to point to it as another reason why even Kim Jong-Il would call Meyer a control freak.
There's one part of the exchange that offended me a bit more than anything else -- even the carefully worded threat of violence against Fowler.
You do it one more time and the Orlando Sentinel's not welcome here ever again. Is that clear? It's yes or no.
Understand I come from a political reporter's perspective on this. The stakes are higher in my profession -- like it or not, we are the last watchdogs of democracy -- and the claim that one is being "quoted out of context" is a politicians way of saying, "A reporter accurately quoted me saying something I wish I hadn't said."
But threatening to cut off access is a (usually unsuccessful) way of attempting to influence the tone of coverage in your favor. Nothing else. This has happened to your humble correspondent before -- I was barred from an otherwise open press conference because the governor's office thought the timing of one of my questions in an earlier interview to be inappropriate. (And didn't like the fact that the question was about the governor's truthfulness in a court case.) The situation got way out of hand -- those in the press van that carried reporters to the governor's mansion had to present photo IDs to prove they weren't me -- and all it did was piss me off and make the governor's office look petty to practically everyone else in the press corps.
Urban Meyer looks bad in this case because he acted like an ill-tempered idiot. Certainly, he would have the right to bar the Orlando Sentinel from practice if he wanted to -- but having the right doesn't make you right. I would guess the rant had two purposes -- the first, to protect Meyer's players (an honorable instinct), and the second, to send a not-too-subtle message to the press that it best be careful in what it says about the Florida football program. This is even easier to do in football, where you have no reason to play to anyone but the base and the readers of a certain publication are even more likely to take your side against the reporter, than in politics. But it's just as wrong.
Reporters have to be able to bring the rest of us the story -- even if you disagree with their take on the particular story. Because saying that Deonte Thompson suggested that Tim Tebow wasn't "a real quarterback" is not that far removed from saying he dropped a critical pass late in the game. And if you want a reporter to be able to say the latter, he has to be able to say the former as well.
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There's also some personal resonance to another story that's been getting attention this week: the efforts by some black lawmakers and others in South Carolina to ask black recruits to reconsider their commitments to the University of South Carolina because the lone black trustee looks less and less likely to be re-appointed.
This is a personal story on a few levels. First, most of the readers of this blog know that I am a proud South Carolina graduate. I am a lifelong Southerner who considers South Carolina to be my adopted home state.
And I more than once interviewed Rep. David Weeks, the chairman of the South Carolina Legislative Black Caucus, who said:
"We are asking young athletes to be aware ... there are folks in this state who say it's fine to play ball, but not be on the governing board," Weeks told The Associated Press.
Rep. Weeks and others have a legitimate point about the lack of diversity on the board of trustees. Despite the fact that it's not in line with the state's population, the university is one of the more diverse public institutions in the South. That demands more representation on the board than one, much less zero. But for the supporters of increased diversity on the board, this is the wrong move.
The first reason is the fairly obvious one -- that South Carolina players, coaches and even the board of trustees itself have no control over who is appointed to the board. That is a legislative decision drive as much by politics and the good-ole-boys network as any other appointment decision in state government. (It is not coincidental that higher education governing boards are often populated with bank presidents, former politicians and the wealthy.) We've noted here before the intersection of race and cronyism in the South and across the nation, and I suspect that's at play here. Despite being a fellow Republican, Gov. Mark Sanford -- who appointed the black trustee -- was hated by GOP lawmakers even before he went hiking the Appalachian Trail in Argentina.
But the less obvious reason is that this form of protest is in some ways counterproductive.
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For one thing, if black recruits were to listen to those asking them to play elsewhere -- and all indications are that they aren't -- it would make life far more difficult for Steve Spurrier, the same football coach who waded without invitation into one of the state's most contentious issues on the side of black lawmakers.
On a video of the banquet, Spurrier is heard saying the South Carolina-Tennessee game last year, which was featured on ESPN's "GameDay," was marred "by some clown ... waving that dang, damn Confederate flag behind the TV set. And it was embarrassing to me and I know embarrassing to our state.
"I realize I'm not supposed to get in the political arena as a football coach, but if anybody were ever to ask me about that damn Confederate flag, I would say we need to get rid of it. I've been told not to talk about that. But if anyone were ever to ask me about it, I certainly wish we could get rid of it."
The important thing to realize here is that despite Spurrier's comments and despite a long-standing NCAA ban on events in championship events in South Carolina, the flag still flies. Conservative lawmakers still make it sound like a patriotic duty to fly a flag that at best represents a separatist republic that tried to tear the nation apart. So any protest based on race in South Carolina has to deal with the question: What if it doesn't work quickly or at all?
And that's where you get to the real problem: On the off chance this protest was successful in discouraging black players from coming to South Carolina but not in changing the results of the trustee election, it could actually lead to the resegregation of the South Carolina football program. And that would be a huge stumbling block for race relations in the state. Not because of the tired excuse of standing up to "rabble-rousing," but because sports can serve as an engine for social change that means much more than a trustee election -- as long as it's allowed to do so.
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My mother sometimes tells the story of one of the first managers my father had in the retail business after my parents got married. One day, during an Auburn football game, the manager stood in the middle of the store, watching the game on TV, and yelling at one of the players going for a crucial touchdown: "Run, [n-word], run!" The story is both disgusting and comical now for the idea that, on the order of just 30 years ago, a man thought it appropriate to yell that in public.
But take a step back and the story becomes a testament to the power of sports to affect our attitudes ever so slightly: For a single moment on that Saturday decades ago, a man who couldn't get past his prejudice long enough to see how that phrase might offend others was cheering in his own way for a black man to achieve something.
And it is a story that has played out again for years and years: If at no other time, Southerners are often united on Saturday. South Carolina fans that are black and white cheer for players who are black and white. Auburn fans do the same. And Georgia fans, and Alabama fans and even Mississippi State fans.
Yes, there are problems with the South Carolina board of trustees. And yes, sports is a great way to draw people's attention to the issue. But certainly there's a way to do that without dividing people on the one day they cheer for the same thing.
It would be far better to find a way to make every other day in the South more like Saturday -- not the other way around.
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The Confederate Flag that the NAACP complains about is flying over a memorial dedicated to South Carolina’s Confederate dead. I have no problem with this and I don’t see why anyone else would. When you say “Despite this… the flag still flies” perhaps you should point out that it currently flies with no political or racist connotations at all.
Eh, as a white conservative myself
I find it much easier to empathize with the black person who is disturbed by what he perceives to be a symbol for slavery than I can with some white guy who claims that it is “dedicated to South Carolina’s confederate dead.”
Why not fly a flag for those who died in the Revolutionary War, or World War II, or Vietnam, or…? There is a political message implicit in the flag by selecting the Civil War (specifically the side that fought for states rights – political – to protect slavery – racist), regardless of what is claimed.
For example, what if one wore a swastika and claimed it was in tribute to old Germanic shamanic traditions? Sure, they may not be personally promoting the extermination of the Jews, but that is how it will be perceived. Same with the Confederate flag, and in that way the racist connotations will forever exist.
"In case you're wondering what the offense should look like, that wasn't it." - Urban Meyer
by cantcatchuf on Mar 26, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The Confederate Flag
At the same time, you’ve got to acknowledge that the flag has been appropriated to represent racist ideas by everyone from neo-Nazis to “good ol’ boy” bigots. I’m from Arkansas, so I grew up with a deluge of those flags adorning everything from baby clothes to truck paint jobs, and while I’m not personally offended by the flag, I can see how others are, based solely on the attitudes of those who might wear one on a t-shirt. I also tend to distance myself from those who blatantly flaunt it.
I always approach those who say “yeah, we’ve got a Confederate flahg, but we don’t mean anything racist by it” with a bit of puzzlement. I’m always wondering what they really “mean” about it. Couldn’t Confederate soldiers be honored with an American flag, as they were Americans, especially considering that they’re supposedly honoring the soldiers and not their ideals? Isn’t there a better symbol to promote the support of “states’ rights” than a centuries old flag that really stood for more at the time and now is actively used to promote something vile?
Another way to look at this issue...
The State House in Columbia represents the entire state, which is about 30% black. What does the flag represent to them? Is the history it represents one they want to remember and / or honor? Like an above poster said, the choice to continue flying the flag is one with wide-ranging political resonances that go beyond honoring the Confederate dead. I mean, what does it even mean to honor the Confederate dead? Are we willing to fly a flag at the State House honoring the black men of South Carolina that fought alongside Union forces for their freedom? Flying the Confederate Flag in effect says that those other histories are not the one’s the state associates itself with, and for a state that’s 30% black, one little wonders why that might be a problem for a large portion of its population.
Garnet and Black Attack: A Blog by and for Gamecocks Fans.
by Gamecock Man on Mar 26, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Without talking about the confederate flag specifically..
no an American flag would not work. While I am an avid patriot and come from a military family that holds the American flag sacred. It would be the same as having an Vietnam War Memorial for those South Vietnamese that fought for their freedom to choose for themselves and flying the current Vietnamese flag over it. It would be a dishonor, in my opinion.
by Charlestowne on Apr 19, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, this is false
You can’t say that a flag that represents to millions slavery and oppression “flies with no political or racist connotations at all.” It is just impossible to make that claim, and in doing so respond to someone who is complaining about the political and racist connotations of the flag itself.
To the three above posts:
I understand what the perception of the flag is. I understand how people might find it distasteful. However, that doesn’t mean we should disregard facts. The facts are that the vast majority of Confederate foot soldiers signed up and fought not for slavery, but to defend their homes from foreign invaders. The flag flying over the monument is a Confederate Battle Flag- the one that soldiers fought under, not the national flag of the Confederacy, which represented the country as a whole.
As a veteran of Iraq, I can empathize with these soldiers, perhaps moreso than most. I get that the Iraq War is unpopular in many areas of the country, and that maybe after time goes by our grandchildren may see this war as despicable or something to be abhorred. I don’t think, however, that anyone here would be willing to place blame for that on the soldiers that have fought and died. I would hate to think that possibly, in the future people would hesitate to honor our contributions because of how it might be perceived by others. That is essentially what is happening to the Confederate soldiers here, and maybe that is why I empathize with them.
My point is that whether or not people are offended by the Battle Flag, or paying tribute to the soldiers who fought and died under that flag for what they believe in, that is no excuse to refuse to honor those very American soldiers.
Also it should be noted that the State House grounds also contain a monument to the contributions of African Americans, I believe the first of it’s kind in the South.
The point is missed though
I’m not saying disrespect soldiers who fought for what may or may not (I take no position on this debate) a just cause in their minds. However, there are MANY better ways to show that support than by flying a flag WIDELY recognized as a symbol of racism. Even if the flag didn’t mean that at first, today to many, MANY people that flag symbolizes a dark past that we should not honor.
There are many reasons to honor those who fought. And a simple, clear analogy would be to the Germans in WWII. There were millions of Germans who fought under the Nazi flag for their homeland, and had little to no knowledge of the purges going on in the Holocaust. However, you do not see the nation of Germany honoring those men by flying a Nazi flag in remembrance of their sacrifices for their country. Similarly, even if we support the memory of those who died for their homes, flying the flag of the Confederacy is the wrong way to do it. In and of itself the flag is too charged a tool that symbolizes too many negative things. There are other ways.
Your analogy doesn’t work. The Nazi flag was a symbol of the National Socialist Political Party- soldiers (the majority of whom were not Nazis) were not represented by that flag.
If they were flying the national flag of the Confederacy, I would have little problem with removing it. No matter the perception, they are flying the flag of the common foot soldier, who’s values were honorable, whatever your race or creed may be.
Perhaps there are better ways. You could remove the flag, but that would (justifiably, in my mind) offend many descendants of Confederate soldiers. There are many people in SC who are proud of the flag, and there are (I suppose) many who dislike it intensely. I didn’t like it when the flag flew above the capitol building either. I feel that the compromise made works for all parties.
If you wanted to advance in the German army, you had to a memebr of the Nazi party.
And I don’t think you can make a successful case that the Nazi flag didn’t represent every single German soldier. They wore swastikas on their uniforms. I happen to think its a perfect comparison.
Dum spiro spero - "While I breathe, I hope"
State motto of South Carolina
by The Feathered Warrior on Mar 26, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
And I used to carry an M16 with “Columbia, S.C.” printed on the magazine well; doesn’t mean I’m a Gamecock fan.
If you think that the Nazi flag represented every single German soldiers’ values (the vast majority of whom were drafted), then I don’t know what to tell you hoss, except that you are misguided to say the least.
Well, first off, that "Columbia, S.C" wasn't printed on your gun as it's main identifying mark.
But I would say that “Columbia, SC” correctly identified your gun as coming from Columbia, SC. For instance: “Hey John, why does that guy have a swastika on his shoulder?” “Oh, him? He’s a Nazi.” – Seems like a pretty clear connection to me.
You don’t get to decide what a symbol means. We, as a collective society, make a decision on what symbols mean to us – for better or worse.
I think what you’re failing to recognize is that symbols are high-jacked all time. It makes no difference to me what the Confederate flag used to stand for. Hell, maybe people who put it on the back of their truck are big “Dukes of Hazard” fans. What I am saying is that they are misguided and need swallow their pride so that our state can move forward. I want our state to prosper. We can’t do that if people won’t let go of a symbol that is widely regarded as racist. At the very least, it’s divisive.
Dum spiro spero - "While I breathe, I hope"
State motto of South Carolina
by The Feathered Warrior on Mar 27, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So all German soldiers who were drafted and were forced to wear the uniform with a swastika were Nazis? Are you serious?
Also, why is it that only the one side is misguided and needs to swallow pride? Why is it always the same people who must make sacrifices to please others? After all, very few of them are causing any actual problems. Why is it that the other side isn’t expected to realize that only a small minority use the flag for intentionally negative reasons?
You’re right, maybe some are big Dukes of Hazzard fans. So if you recognize that it’s not always used with a negative connotation, then why would you assume that anyone who uses it is a racist?
There needs a be a little more understanding from both sides if we’re ever going to get past this ridiculous hang-up.
I don't think I ever said that everyone who flies the Confederate flag is racist.
But I am more concerned the perception that the Confederate flag connotes. Well intentioned people are marring my state’s image. I’d rather try to change the minds of 50% of this state than the entire rest of the nation. That’s why I think Confederate flag flier should have to swallow their pride. Practicality.
I guess when it comes down to it, you’re more concerned with feelings of people who have been dead for 150 years. I’m more concerned with people that still have lives to lead.
I think this is where I take my leave of this argument. Thanks for your civility, Skyagusta.
Dum spiro spero - "While I breathe, I hope"
State motto of South Carolina
by The Feathered Warrior on Mar 27, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Allow me to reword
I guess when it comes down to it, I am more concerned with honoring noble Americans who sacrificed their lives for their country than with hurting people’s feelings. After all, I may be one of the ones being forgotten in 150 years; I hope someone would be there then to speak up for me and my fellow soldiers.
None of these people
that are marring the states image are well intended… sorry. The people who make a bid deal about it being on the war memorial are grabbing for headlines, IMO. My problem isn’t the flag itself. Its that the two sides came together and made an agreement about was acceptable to all involved, and the NAACP doesn’t want to live up to their part of the agreement because it makes money for them.
by Charlestowne on Apr 19, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
That is true for certain parts of the army..
The SS for example, however, there were many Generals and high level officers that were not members of the party.
by Charlestowne on Apr 19, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That's... misleading.
I take exception with your characterization of American soldiers (in this case, Union soldiers) as “foreign invaders”, especially after you go on to call Confederate forces “American soldiers”. Despite the fact that the CSA was never recognized by anyone as an independent nation, the only reason that Union soldiers could be considered “foreign” is because SC seceded. According to documents from the Avalon Project, the main reason for SC’s secession was over slavingholders’ rights. So, your claim that Confederate soldiers were “defend[ing] their homes” from “foreign invaders”, not because of slavery, is not entirely forthcoming.
I think I also have to ask why there’s such selectivity who gets honored and how. Surely there were Union soldiers from SC, as well? Why can’t there be a memorial for all SC natives who fought in the Civil War, regardless of side, since we’re all Americans, after all?
I apologize, I should have been more clear. I didn’t mean to characterize Union soldiers as ‘foreign invaders’ (they were of course just as American as the Confederate soldiers), just saying that that was the perception in the common southerner’s mind at the time. The North and South were indeed very different places back then, and after secession, two seperate countries.
I understand that the main reason behind SC’s secession was the (perceived) threat to slavery. However, secession didn’t start the war. The war didn’t start until months later. The common soldier fought to defend their homes against Union Armies who were invading the South. When General Lee crossed into Maryland in the Antietam Campaign and into Pennsylvania in the Gettysburg campaign, his army saw hugely increased rates of desertion. Why? Because his soldiers felt that they were no longer fighting in defense of their country. You don’t have to take my word for it, there are many books on the subject.
Also, I would be all for a monument dedicated to all SC Civil War veterans regardless of side.
Please don't feel like I'm arguing with you, just discussing.
Secession did start the war, inasmuch as there never would have been a civil war if secession didn’t happen. Sure, you can always point to some act of agression elsewhere, but I fell the root cause of the entire conflict traces directly to secession.
I think where we’re all getting hung up is the flag, which does have a direct and unbreakable tie to the CSA. While it wasn’t part of the first national flag of the Confederacy, it was an integral part of the second and third, which is something that you can’t ignore.
The fact that some “desendants” of Confederate soldiers would be offended if the flag was removed really makes me question their true intent. No one wants the monument gone, as far as I know, but the strict rigidity to the flag is puzzling to me. They’re basically saying, "No, a plaque or even an American flag can’t “properly” honor these soldiers. Only a Confederate flag will do". Given the modern connotation of the flag, I can’t help but feel that they have other (perhaps negative) intentions with that flag, intentions that a plaque or American flag wouldn’t convey.
Anyways, we could probably go all day with this, but I’m not sure this is the proper forum. I’d also like to thank you for keeping your tone civil, as too often discussions of this nature go downhill quickly.
Its drawing a line in the sand..
and saying this far, but no further. That’s what it means to many South Carolinians.
by Charlestowne on Apr 19, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
South Carolina secession was for...
taxes levied on agricultural exports, followed by a refusal to pay them, followed by a blockade of southern ports. Secession was also a right afforded in the constitution, and when the north illegally sent federal troops into Virginia, on their way to SC, the illegally (according to the law of the time) invaded a sovereign state of the Union sparking the Civil War.
by Charlestowne on Apr 19, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate the discussion
Secession may have led to war but I don’t feel that the reasons for secession are synonymous with the reasons the soldier’s fought.
I think the fact that descendants would be offended has more to do with the fact that yet another symbol of the Confederate soldiers’ struggle has been removed, or in this case, essentially hidden. Had the flag never been put on the capitol building in the first place, all this could have been avoided.
I agree with your last paragraph, and thanks to you as well. These discussions rarely lead to people changing their minds, but still are good for learning ‘the other perspective’.
also, to clarify
second paragraph should say “soldiers’ struggle would have been removed”
Skyagusta...
Just wanted to say that I can see where you’re coming from on us needing a memorial for the Confederate dead. Whatever one may think about secession, those men made a great sacrifice and should be remembered in some way. I just don’t think the Confederate Flag is the right way because of what it connotes to many in the state.
I also—again disregarding whatever one may think about the ethical basis of secession—don’t think it’s unfair to call the Union a “foreign invader.” We oftentimes forget that the North and South really were two countries for a few years, and that the North’s legal rights to enforce union were at best specious based on any legitimate reading of the general understanding of the Constitution at the time.
Sorry I don’t have time to write a longer, proper post. Very busy today.
Garnet and Black Attack: A Blog by and for Gamecocks Fans.
One more thing to add...
I think it’s important to recognize the above re: the secession and “foreign invaders” point. Slavery and the fight to defend it were a sorry part of our history, but a perhaps even sorrier part of the entire country’s history is the way that racism tends to be relegated to the South and that the North—and the idea of “Union,” really in many senses a mask for Northern interests—is idealized. As reading the writings of any black man or woman who escaped to the North will teach you (take a look at what Frederick Douglass has to say about how he found things in the North), things were hardly that simple, and they are no more simple today than they were then. And denying the fact that these were two countries at one time, rather than the Naughty Boy South and the Noble Father North, is denying these complex historical dynamics.
Garnet and Black Attack: A Blog by and for Gamecocks Fans.
by Gamecock Man on Mar 26, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not entirely sure I should say this...
While the North’s rights to enforce union may have been specious, the South’s right to secession was equally specious. The CSA was never recognized by any government (foreign or otherwise) as an independent nation, so to characterize it as such, despite perhaps relying on semantics, is a bit spurious.
One final point, and then I’ll shut-up: If Union soldiers were “foreign invaders”, then I don’t see how you can call Confederate soldiers “Americans”, and I’m not sure we have any obligation (and maybe even need) to honor “non-American” soldiers who fought against what can accurately be described as “American” soldiers, regardless of the aggressor. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just something to think about.
We’re all walking on unstable ground with this issue. To say that Confederate soldiers were “only trying to defend their homes” is not entirely accurate, but to denounce all members of the Confederacy as “racists” is not the way to go either. We should honor these soldiers (all soldiers from the CW), but really from the perspective that we were able to rise out of this ugly time in our history.
No point in debating the right of secession; unfortunately, it was settled on the battlefield. I will say that although the CSA wasn’t recognized by foreign governments, I don’t think it’s spurious at all to refer to it as an independent nation. The CSA constructed a working national government, citizens possessed a definite national identity, and it’s armies defended itself from one of the most powerful countries on the planet, indeed nearly winning several times, for four years.
And you are completely misunderstanding the reference to Union soldiers as “foreign invaders”. I was saying that that is how they seemed to the average Southerner of the time. I wasn’t calling them foreigners. However, if I was a rural Southerner of the 1860s, that is exactly how I would’ve percieved them, even before secession. That’s all I was saying.
No, I understood your point... I was just making a different one.
I had originally typed a longer reply, but it felting droning. I will say this, though: I think Confederate soldiers (and all CW soldiers) should be remembered because they were Americans, which I think we both agree on. I don’t, however, think that they should be honored because they “sacrificed their lives for their country”, because, as you said, the CSA was a different country, a country that was at war with the United States of America.
But, really, I think it’s interesting you brought up the entire concept of perception. If the perception by Southerners of the time that Union soldiers were “foreign invaders” is valid as a reason that these men were “honorable”, is the modern perception that the Confederated Battle Flag is “racist” not just as valid? I’m not saying it is, just something else to think about.
In an issue
Where 50% of a state’s population is in favor of an emblem being displayed, who are you to cast the deciding vote? Slavery was the most heinous institution ever brought about in this country and will forever be a black eye on the nation but where does the persecution end? We have a black president today and he was not elected only by northern states. Please read the words spoken by Robert E. Lee concerning slavery and you may gain some insight as to the average Confederate soldier’s point of view. You may also want to look up the word “tolerance”. When one blindly clings to one side of an argument, the truth is obfuscated. I am a southerner from a long line of Florida farmers and cattlemen and the relationships we have with the black families that inhabit the same territory are as close as other familial ties. We do not look for reasons to become inflamed over perceptions of each others chosen emblems. There is no greater equalizer than working together for a common goal. As for the Stars and Bars holding South Carolina back, I truly hope you get all the recognition and accolades that you desire. With economic development comes all the rest of the garbage that we have been inundated with in the State of Florida. Prepare yourselves for more pollution, water shortages, urban sprawl and a loss of identity as a community. Be careful what you wish for
The reason the CMA was never recognized is the same reason..
the Colonial American Government wasn’t recognized by anyone until well into the 3rd year of that war.
by Charlestowne on Apr 19, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Since we're on the subject of the flag, I'd like to make my thoughts known.
I’m not going to say much about the Civil War, as dxf04 has done a much better job arguing those points than I could hope to do.
But, unless I’m mistaken, dxf04 is not a South Carolina resident, and I’d like to offer that point of view.
What bothers me about that Confederate flag the most is that it is holding back South Carolina. This is a fact. The NCAA won’t hold championship events here, people outside the state see that flag and immediately pass judgment on our character, and (most importantly) it continues to drive the communities in this state apart.
I don’t buy the argument that the Confederate flag doesn’t represent racism. Perception is reality. Let’s not forget that the Confederate wasn’t placed atop the State House until 1962 – by an all white legislature, I might add. If the timing of that decision seems odd to you, go with the feeling. The flag was placed atop the State House in direct response to the Civil Rights movement.
Then, once the decision was made to move the flag, where did they put it? Why, but on Gervais Street, front and center on the State House grounds for all to see, of course. Another act of defiance, as if to suggest the confederate memorial was the most important memorial on the State House grounds. I don’t just want that flag taken down, I want the entire memorial moved to another location on the grounds. The State House is a beautiful historical building, itself a memorial to Confederate soldiers or sorts. Bronze stars dotting the facade of the building marking the actual cannon ball strikes from Sherman’s army. But that’s not enough for some people in this state. They have to ruin what could be a point of pride among all South Carolinians by draping it in the most divisive symbol in the South. Now, every time I drive by the State House I’m forced to look past a symbol subversive to progress in order to appreciate the greatest combination of capital building and state flag in the US.
SkyAgusta, I truly appreciate your civility in this discussion, but I think you’re off base in worrying that a removal of the flag would somehow allow the contributions of the average Confederate soldiers to be forgotten. For one thing, there is no more sympathetic character in history than the poor SOB that’s fighting a war for no other reason than to defend his home. But to ignore the direct role that slavery played in every soldier’s decision to fight is a lie of omission. It’s not as if the Union was hell bent on invading the South come hell or high water. Union soldiers were sent into the South as a direct result of South Carolina’s succession, which was a direct result of the argument over states’ rights, which was only pertinent due to the issue of slavery. If slavery truly had no impact on these average soldiers’ decision to fight in the war, they could have opened their arms to the Union, as many towns chose to do across the south. No fighting would have occurred, and Union armies would have passed right on through.
Secondly, an adequate memorial could be erected without any connection to the controversial flag. Look at the Vietnam memorial, maybe the greatest, most emblematic memorial on the national mall. It’s so simple in its design, yet so deeply moving in its execution. It just lists the names of those that died fighting in the war. What more needs to be said?
I’d also like point out the hypocrisy of people that like to say the flag is "heritage, not hate." (To be clear, SkyAgusta, I’m not lumping you into to this group. The fact of the matter is that the heritage surrounding the Confederate flag is hate. What’s more, I echo dfx04’s sentiment, wondering why their heritage is so selective. Surely these people have relatives that fought in the revolutionary war, French and Indian war, the war of 1812, the Vietnam war, and maybe even the war of the roses. I don’t see any of them preserving that heritage with such zeal. Why, then, is this particular heritage so important to them?
In the end I am just sick of this flag issue holding the State of South Carolina hostage. Our people are so much more than an amalgamation of stars and bars. However, businesses and visitors can’t see past the image of our state that we tacitly approve. We have so much more to offer this country than being the butt of so many jokes and so much judgment. I have to question anyone’s motive who would forsake progress for a divisive symbol of our state’s mistakes (again, not lumping you in here, SkyAgusta).

Dum spiro spero - "While I breathe, I hope"
State motto of South Carolina
by The Feathered Warrior on Mar 26, 2010 10:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
We will have to agree to disagree, I suppose
I understand your point of view, but I simply do not share it. I feel I have outlined my stance as clearly as I could in the above posts.
I think it is sad that what should be an honorable symbol is perceived in such a way. There are many different people (on both sides of the issue) that can be blamed for this; all I know is that the ones that cannot be blamed, the soldiers who bled and died for their homes and families, are the ones paying the price.
Perhaps people don’t get as riled up about other wars because the symbols of the soldiers’ of other wars aren’t shoved aside, taken down, and slandered on a regular basis because of a fear of offending people. I would imagine that if people began regarding symbols of, say, the Vietnam War with the same kind of anger and hatred a similar group of people would stand up in defense of these symbols also.
People are going to think what they want to when they see a symbol, regardless of the facts of the matter. The fact is that people are very selective, or willfully ignorant, when choosing which facts to pay attention to in regards to certain symbols. The Confederate Battle Flag is seen to represent slavery, even though it represented soldiers. Slavery thrived under the Stars and Stripes for 90 years and thousands upon thousands of Native Americans were systematically killed by genuine American ethnic cleansing, yet these facts are ignored or forgotten when people feel proud to fly the American Flag.
I understand that the Confederate Battle Flag has been subverted by others for their uses, for example White Supremecist groups and their ilk (by the way, I feel that these types are a very small minority of people who fly and are proud of the Battle Flag). The funny thing is that they have the exact same understanding of the origins of the flag as the people who demand to bring it down and hide it away forever, and that that understanding is factual wrong. It should be noted that the KKK flew the American Flag exclusively until the 1960’s. That’s nearly 100 years where they felt the Stars and Stripes represented their values just fine. Then, of course, it became fashionable to fly the Battle Flag in order to represent racist values. So why is it that everyone only remembers the negative things about one symbol, and only the positive things about another?
I know this is rambling on and probably making little sense; it is pretty late. Hopefully I can express myself more clearly next time I log on.
I should also say
That I hate the fact that the monument and flag are causing our state economic harm as well. However, I will place the blame for that on people who (perhaps willfully) misunderstand the context in which the flag flies today, which is over a memorial to soldiers who sacrificed their lives. Like I said above, had the flag never been placed on the capitol building, no one at all would be pushing to have it anywhere on state house grounds. However it was put there and now the state is trying to please everyone. I think the compromise would work if people would be willing to listen to facts and understand that there are people in this state who are proud of the flag and are proud of the ancestors’ struggles and that they are tired of having their symbols removed and hidden.
Maybe the main stumbling point is that the common perception is that anyone who flies the flag is racist or has a racist message. I grew up in rural SC, and was around the flag constantly. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of people fly it to represent Southern pride. I have personally never seen it flown with the intent to send a racist message. Perhaps some of y’all have had a different experience.
I am glad you grouped the whole flag thing in with the Urban Meyer story
Makes my night go easier. I do think Meyer lost his cool, and if he wanted to be the bigger man and keep the respected persona he has had he would apologise for losing his cool but still keep to his original points.
I understand this was a quote from Thompson. But its clear his intentions when writing the article was to make it seem like he was glad Tebow is gone. And if I am annoyed with the anti Tebow talking heads as of late, I can only imagine how Meyer feels. So he is probably making an example out of him by letting reporters know…Dont get my players wrapped up in the Tebow drama. You can argue that the quote was from Deonte own mouth, but everything else before and after the quote just makes it look worse and that wasnt by accident.
"When you argue correctly, you're never wrong."-Nick Naylor
What article did you read?
He wrote it from the standpoint that Thompson is happy that he has a chance to figure more prominently in the offense. Is that a corrollary from Tebow being gone? Probably. In fact, Thompson’s first quote in the story (not the one that made Gator fans indignant with the media) spells that out pretty plainly. Here’s the story.
What started the firestorm is 5 words: “Thompson’s comment was either intentional….”. Unfortunately, Gator fans seem to have missed the 4th word in that sentence, as well as the rest of the sentence and the next 2 sentences where Fowler defends Thompson.
Urban’s reaction to this story was childish and unprofessional, and seems to me that he (and the fanbase) are more interested in defending the “legend” of Tim Tebow than “protecting their player”.
That may be a bit stronly worded, and I mean no offense, but just as you’re tired of the “anti Tebow talking heads”, I’m tired of the Gator fans acting like a reporter “spun” a quote (or took it “out of context”) as an intentional slight to Tebow, neither of which is true, when the article is really about how excited Thompson is about the new offense.
Its clear the article is written to make it seem like Thompson is happy Tebow is gone.
Just look at the title of the article, that alone sets the tone. I agree that Brantley is a pure passer and more of a NFL proto type and Tebow is not even close to that. I think Thompson was simply saying that, but the way it is written, it sounds like hes happy Tebow is gone. And this has nothing to do with my biased support. When I first read the quotes alone by itself I had no problem with them. When I read the article is when I started to wonder if I should of read into it more. So you dont have to agree, I am just giving you the stand point of what Urban Meyer may have been thinking as well. And I agreed that he could of handled it better.
I do think Meyer lost his cool, and if he wanted to be the bigger man and keep the respected persona he has had he would apologise for losing his cool but still keep to his original points.
At least I was right about that part.
"When you argue correctly, you're never wrong."-Nick Naylor
He isn't?
I mean, Thompson might miss Tim Tebow on some level. But won’t having a “more conventional” quarterback to help his receiving numbers make Thompson happy on some level?
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.

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