Combined CBS Sports Blog Poll Ballot for Week 6
by cocknfire on Oct 12, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
in Football
24 comments
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| Rank | Team | Delta |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Florida |  2 |
| 2 | Virginia Tech | |
| 3 | Iowa | 9 |
| 4 | Alabama |  3 |
| 5 | Texas | |
| 6 | Oregon | 5 |
| 7 | Boise State | 1 |
| 8 | TCU | 2 |
| 9 | Nebraska | 7 |
| 10 | Ohio State | 3 |
| 11 | LSU | 5 |
| 12 | Southern Cal | 2 |
| 13 | Cincinnati | 9 |
| 14 | Miami (Florida) | 5 |
| 15 | Kansas | 7 |
| 16 | Oklahoma | 9 |
| 17 | Auburn | 10 |
| 18 | Notre Dame | |
| 19 | Georgia Tech | 4 |
| 20 | South Florida | |
| 21 | Brigham Young | |
| 22 | Houston | 2 |
| 23 | Pittsburgh | |
| 24 | South Carolina | 6 |
| 25 | Oklahoma State | 8 |
| Last week's ballot | ||
I came thisclose to submitting a ballot with Virginia Tech at top as a form of protest but decided against it. For the moment. I'll have a more detailed response to Year2's ballot later today or perhaps tomorrow in the comments section of his post, which is here for Alabama fans who will note that you are now ranked No. 4 on our ballot. Nothing else gives me serious heartburn except maybe South Carolina dropping six spots after a win; I just think you should have to play more than five quarters of impressive football in the first six weeks to be ranked No. 1. Onward.
Ties I broke: Florida-Virginia Tech, Nebraska-Ohio State, LSU-Southern Cal-Cincinnati, Miami-Kansas, Georgia Tech-South Florida, Houston-Pittsburgh.
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Believe me
If I wasn’t going all stat-based this week, Bama would be in the top two.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
by Year2 on Oct 12, 2009 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Problem
Yes, that is the problem though when you solely use a computer based system/statistical data, instead of using your own intuitive thought process. It is an important tool, but it should not be solely how you rank teams. You are right that usuall if there is enough statistical data in your population things will eventually even out, but you should be able to use your own intelligence to discern where things are clearly wrong.
Plus, it does kind of make you look like a homer placing Florida number one, and putting Alabama at number four. Trust what you see with your own eyes in conjuction with any other data you can comply.
by Kenny483 on Oct 12, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My half actually has Alabama at No. 7; it’s cocknfire’s half with Alabama at No. 1 that kept the Tide in the top five.
The guy who runs the BlogPoll wants there to be no subjectivity left by now. I simply don’t have the time to keep a resume-only ballot without numbers, so I use numbers. Ultimately, nothing about this ballot means anything because we’re not even half way through the season and, with poll inertia playing no role in a stat-based poll, you don’t have to worry about the standing this week affecting what it will be at the end of the season.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
by Year2 on Oct 12, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I...
…apologize to cocknfire I was not trying to go after him, just was pointing out the flaw in the way you vote. I understand what you are trying to convey, but I still have to believe there is plenty of room for intelligence in your ballot. It does not take too much to remember that Alabama is undefeated and beat Virgina Tech, or that USC beat OSU on the road. USC also beat Cal on the road, and Ohio State’s best win is maybe Wisconsin at home?
Again, I enjoy your stuff, and whole bunch of the statistical driven analysis you present, but I still would argue that there is plenty of room to improve. In some ways I do applaud you trying to think of a different method of ranking teams, than just moving teams up or down based on them winning or losing.
by Kenny483 on Oct 12, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
South Carolina’s fall only occurred because I completely changed my system of voting. If I was voting the old way, they’d be in at least the top 20 for sure.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
by Year2 on Oct 12, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, So, I've already established my total disrespect for polls so this is hypocritical:
But how is it that Auburn can even be in this poll after losing to Arkansas – let’s face it , they were embarrassed in all phases of the game by a team that is showing improvement but which isn’t even within spitting distance of elite status – especially on defense?
My argument isn’t for the hogs to be on this ballot either – and yes, USC did not deserve to fall this week.
by HogInAiken on Oct 12, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
VT #2!!!!!!?
You do remember that the Tide beat VT right? I can understand the Tide not being #1 but #4, behind a team they beat handily on a neutral field? I’d thought at one time that this was a place of serious football discussion and contemplation and not the extension of some ignorant fans delusion. But I see now that I was mistaken.
Yeah, Year2 , I’m talking about you. The entire country is all over ’Bama’s jock and It makes your orange and blue blood boil, doesn’t it.
Don’t bother responding to this post, there’s really no point, I won’t be coming back to read IT or anything else for that matter.
What a joke.
"We intend to go out and hit people in the mouth. That's how we play. We're going to run the ball at you and we're going to stop you from running the ball. That's our personality, and we're going to have fun doing it." - Rolando McClain
by lcase373 on Oct 12, 2009 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I agree on VT at No. 2 -- that's where I had them
Sure, I didn’t have them behind Bama, but I think saying they’re the second-best team in the country is completely defensible, which is one reason I had the Tide at No. 1.
Virginia Tech has the best loss in the country, defeated Nebraska and waxed Miami and a decent BC team. That’s about as many quality wins as you’ll find.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
by cocknfire on Oct 12, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a sad day for me, really.
I really liked this site, partly due to my apparently false belief it was objective. But putting the Tide at #7 and behind a team they beat like a drum on a neutral field is nothing but pure unadulterated homerism.
"We intend to go out and hit people in the mouth. That's how we play. We're going to run the ball at you and we're going to stop you from running the ball. That's our personality, and we're going to have fun doing it." - Rolando McClain
by lcase373 on Oct 12, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I may continue to read posts
by people other than Year2. He’s lost a lot of credibility in my eyes, but I’m sure he won’t lose any sleep over my dissension.
"We intend to go out and hit people in the mouth. That's how we play. We're going to run the ball at you and we're going to stop you from running the ball. That's our personality, and we're going to have fun doing it." - Rolando McClain
by lcase373 on Oct 12, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait,
the problem with Year2’s ranking is that it’s COMPLETELY objective. He came up with a numbers system and applied it without regard for which teams it put where. The problem, in fact, is that he DIDN’T allow his personal biases based on common sense and somewhat subjective analysis (which he’s admitted include his belief that Bama is top-2-worthy) that make his rankings troublesome.
by Gator Cub on Oct 12, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
…gathering statistics is great, but if there is no analysis its pretty useless.
by Kenny483 on Oct 12, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Objective?
No not entirely. “Numbers” based systems are often lauded as being objective, however rarely is that the case. It all depends on which numbers you include and which numbers you exclude. I would be interested in seeing the scientific formula Year2 used, then I MAY at least, see where he’s coming from. When it comes to objectivity and subjectivity you don’t get much more objective than head-to-head, and to ignore a h2h match up and base your analysis on a subjective self-devised “numbers” formula is a bit disingenuous and at it’s very least, subjective.
"We intend to go out and hit people in the mouth. That's how we play. We're going to run the ball at you and we're going to stop you from running the ball. That's our personality, and we're going to have fun doing it." - Rolando McClain
by lcase373 on Oct 12, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Year2 has been about as transparent as you can be
His formula is in his post. Disagreeing with him is fine, but you can’t argue that he hasn’t been above-board about the whole thing.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
by cocknfire on Oct 12, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the objectivity/subjectivity of head-to-head isn't clear cut
Do you think Georgia should be ranked or South Carolina shouldn’t? Do we need to reinsert Washington ahead of Southern Cal? Florida State has to go ahead of BYU, right?
The best doesn’t always win the game. I would argue that we don’t have the evidence to say that that happened in the Alabama-Tech game and plenty of evidence that the team that won was, in fact, the best team. But head-to-head has never been the argument-ender that some people think; see Texas-Oklahoma-Texas Tech last year.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
by cocknfire on Oct 12, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will apologize to Year2..
…for insinuating he was being disingenuous. I will admit fault in that I didn’t see his earlier post in which he explains his methodology. His rational is sound but is inherently subjective since he chooses the variables and the manner in which some variables are calculated. I think Gator Cub’s post from the previously referenced article best sums up my overall premise. Due to my ,admitted, prideful indignation and the lack of all pertinent information, I may not have expressed it in the best way.
“…but any system attempting to judge teams based solely on on-field performance that places an undefeated team 5 spots below the 1-loss team it beat fairly soundly needs an injection of common sense to fix it.
Claiming "the system I use takes it out of my hands" doesn’t protect you from the charge that you chose the system. And, at least in that one ranking this week, it’s pretty busted." – Gator Cub
Additionally, IMO, any system solely based on, subjectively chosen, numerical data, isn’t always representative of reality. Ninety percent of the moaning and groaning heard every December stems from those who disagree with the BCS. Usually, the finger is pointed towards the six computer rankings used: Jeff Sagarin, Anderson & Hester, Richard Billingsley, Colley Matrix, Kenneth Massey and Dr. Peter Wolfe. Because these masterfully constructed, incredibly complex (some), “formulas” don’t always reflect reality, or at least the perception there of.
So in conclusion, I would like to apologize to Year2, again, for implying he was stacking the data in favor of his team.
"We intend to go out and hit people in the mouth. That's how we play. We're going to run the ball at you and we're going to stop you from running the ball. That's our personality, and we're going to have fun doing it." - Rolando McClain
by lcase373 on Oct 12, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His rational is sound but is inherently subjective since he chooses the variables and the manner in which some variables are calculated.
Exactly right. A lot of people seem to think that stat-based rankings are bias free. In fact, they are biased towards what the person who set them up believes to be important.
The thing that makes them more objective than pure opinion-based polls is that once you have your system, and you decide to stick with it, then you can’t game it in favor or to the detriment of some teams. But, there still is going to be subjectivity in anything that human beings have touched.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
by Year2 on Oct 12, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No hard feelings?
I acted harshly, rashly and without knowledge of all the facts. While I don’t exactly agree with the result I can’t argue (very much) with your system. It’s as good as any I suppose.
I also agree with kleph, It’s your blog and your opinion, don’t let me or anyone else strong-arm you. So again, I apologize for assuming and for overreacting.
"We intend to go out and hit people in the mouth. That's how we play. We're going to run the ball at you and we're going to stop you from running the ball. That's our personality, and we're going to have fun doing it." - Rolando McClain
by lcase373 on Oct 12, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
No hard feelings. You apologized, and I take it as sincere.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
by Year2 on Oct 13, 2009 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
let's be clear here...
the objection is less that it’s alabama being dropped to whatever position on the poll but the fact that the analysis puts a team decisively beaten by another team in a higher position. last time i checked, the goal of the game was to have more points than the other team when time expired. unless your statistical analysis includes this in its assessment, it’s irretrievably divorced from the reality of the games. (and this same criticism applies to the goofiness in the regular polls as well)
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
by kleph on Oct 12, 2009 3:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Relax
I’ve revised my half. Consider this morning’s post a draft.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
by Year2 on Oct 12, 2009 3:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if you think you are right...
…stick to your guns. the blogpoll as a whole will absorb such outliers. your approach is no more radical than what BHGP is doing.
but if there seems to be an inherent problem with the results of your system, you should revisit the basis you founded it upon instead of tweaking it to appease all of us in the peanut gallery.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
by kleph on Oct 12, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll stick to my guns later, but all the commotion caused me to reflect on the sample size and relent for now. A few more weeks down the road and I probably won’t be doing much revising if any.
Team Speed Kills
SBNation's SEC Blog
by Year2 on Oct 12, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I apologize.
"We intend to go out and hit people in the mouth. That's how we play. We're going to run the ball at you and we're going to stop you from running the ball. That's our personality, and we're going to have fun doing it." - Rolando McClain
by lcase373 on Oct 12, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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